263: Celebrity Unplugged: Magazine Writer Vanessa Grigoriadis on Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, & Justin Timberlake

WEBVTT

00:00:00.330 --> 00:00:04.030
This episode is about former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.

00:00:04.849 --> 00:00:26.742
Excuse me, was that's the episode I. Prep for in anticipation of this interview with my guest, who sent me an embargoed recording of America's Governor, all about the rise and fall of New York's love gov and I listened to the episode no kidding. While driving on the Governor Mario M.

00:00:26.795 --> 00:00:30.582
Cuomo Bridge, located 20 miles north of New York City.

00:00:30.635 --> 00:00:37.570
I was on my way to the north shore of Long Island, and I was so excited to drop that nugget with my guest this week.

00:00:37.659 --> 00:00:59.310
But I never got the chance. We never even uttered the name Cuomo, not once. She mentioned Katy Perry. And if you follow me, you can follow exactly what happened next. Is that when she was with Russell Brand? And that led to the who's who of interview topics.

00:01:03.890 --> 00:05:06.026
Welcome to the indestructible PR podcast. I'm Molly McPherson, your crisis communication strategist and your guide through the world of breaking news and pop culture. Join me as we analyze the juiciest moments and extract valuable PR lessons. Let's master the tricks of the trade or at least spot them to help us all build an indestructible reputation. So join me as we go behind the headlines this week, let's journey into the world of celebrity image management. My guest this episode is Vanessa Grigoriadis, a glossy magazine writer who has written cover stories that have appeared in New York Magazine, new York Times, Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, to name a few. Vanessa and I are about the same age, but she was like a cool pop culture girl from the 90s in New York. Now she's a podcaster with her company, Campsite Media. They produce a lot of phenomenal interesting podcasts, including hers called Infamous, and she's covered people like Gwyneth Paltrow and her Ski Trial, kylie Jenner's Plumping Profits, and of course, there was New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. I definitely think that you should check out that episode. It's a two part series. It is fascinating. You're not going to hear about it in this episode because we are going to go into another part of Vanessa's world, the world of celebrity. I have been a glossy magazine writer for many, many years. I started at New York magazine. Then I was at Vanity Fair and Rolling Stone and very well known for big cover stories on Britney Spears or Katy Perry. I spent like four days with Taylor Swift when she was 19 years old. I just got crazy access to a lot of people. I wrote the first Lady Gaga story that anybody ever wrote, that she did completely in character, her Lady Gaga character, and just sort of have a reputation for being early on, a lot of figures that will become big later on, like calling that and also getting a lot of access and spending a lot of time with people. And I love scandals. Well, speaking of scandals, speaking of we won't go too deep in this because I already know there's, like, seven podcasts I could do with you on this topic. But Katy Perry, when everything happened with Russell Brand three weeks ago, did that not surprise you? Okay, so Katy Perry, I actually went to her house in Los Feliz that she lived in with Russell Brand back when I covered her for Rolling Stone. And I remember so vividly she was really into the cute Japanese culture. In the middle of the interview, she left and she went and she put on, like, a little baby kimono and these fluffy Japanese slippers that were like little cats or you know, it's the thing about Katy Perry is, like, she's very young, soul in a lot of ways. She's got a lot of verve to her. And then we went up to Russell Brand's home office, basically his lair. And it was so old man. It was so really sumptuous couches and man desk and stuff, and he was out of town. And I just remember thinking to myself, wow, this is really weird because these two people are so different. He's a comedian, but he's not really a comedian. And she is like a cute little girl in a lot of ways who just is extremely smart right. And has her finger on the pulse. Of culture, but also naive. Would you say that she could fall for someone like a Russell Brand? Yeah. I don't know if she's naive as much as she's sort of still this 15 year old girl who was brought up, like, Christian and used to go to farmers markets with her parents and sort of play music there, I think, or whatever they were like, not wealthy Christian preachers. Basically, her parents that just were rolling around in California.

00:05:06.218 --> 00:06:15.553
And she essentially used that youngness of her real self to dominate musical culture, whereas he seems to have used this masculine energy to get increasingly unpleasant and put this conspiracy theory sort of evilness into the world, at least from my perspective. Oh, interesting. So when you were in his lair and you watched the video of Russell Brand in his new well, it wasn't his lair. It was wherever studio he was backdrop. It all came together and made sense to you. Yeah. I mean, I very much felt like, oh, this is the guy. When I see him talking a lot of times, it does actually sort of look like this room that I saw. I thought he did a relatively good job, actually, from a PR perspective, with handling that. Although I think he's going to go to prison. Yes. I think this is extremely serious, but I would be curious to ask you because I felt like from a PR perspective, it wasn't that bad. He came out before the articles came out.

00:06:15.672 --> 00:06:30.422
He got his little fans all excited about how this could potentially be a conspiracy. Yes. From his perspective, he maybe shouldn't have gone and done those shows that he did because then there were like all these photos of him in sunglasses looking very besieged.

00:06:30.565 --> 00:06:41.579
But the initial response, I've really started to think that people should respond and say, I believe I'm innocent of the charges if they're going to fight them that way.

00:06:41.949 --> 00:07:00.449
Because saying nothing is worse is worse. And Vanessa. It's interesting. So I just gave a talk a couple of days ago and I added Russell Brand to the talk, to the keynote. Because the rule book that he's following, or the playbook that he's following, is one that worked for a long, long time.

00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:21.526
And that is where you deny what was said about you. You deny the allegations, you diminish the allegations and then you want to get through it and then you rebuild to whatever it is that you're doing. And that worked for a lot of people. But it's difficult now in a social media environment because there's so much evidence against you. But with Russell Brand. You're absolutely right. He did a lot of strategic moves.

00:07:21.637 --> 00:08:01.105
His timing and even in the timing of dropping his second video, it was almost to the second, it was late enough that it missed all the feeds so no one could cover it on Friday because he knew in a couple of days they were doing more interviews. So yeah, from a PR perspective, he's doing all the right things. But as a human, what he did, he shouldn't get away with it. No, and I don't think he will. And I think that the thing is a lot of people, when they're caught in these problems, they think to themselves like, how do I save my career? And it's like, dude, you have a much more serious problem. But the wheels of justice are slow and this is go on for a few years like this. Who even knows?

00:08:01.218 --> 00:09:17.614
Sometimes juries don't decide or maybe there's a plea or who knows? But it's so fascinating. The human brain cannot take in that much punishment. So first people concerned about their image and then they start reckoning with like, oh my God, I might actually really have a serious legal problem. It sort of happens like that often. But I just think again, I'm not saying this is good. I think these stories look very credible to me. I don't think this is like a me too situation where it's like being pieced together by some journalist that's trying to just make a know this looks real. But I will say that he is going to get the benefit of timing, which is like, nobody cares about these stories anymore. People are just sick of them. They don't want to hear them. And you know what? They're not that surprised by this with Russell Brand. They're like, right. What? So Russell Brand is like doing this kind of misconduct. Like people who wrote off Russell Brand. Already wrote off Russell Brand. Right. Like as a Joe Rogan ish dude, who's just out for attention and clicks and sort of the faux wellness angle mixed with this real need to know a media space. So I don't know.

00:09:17.652 --> 00:12:21.529
I mean, it's fascinating to think, like, what would happen if Harvey Weinstein came out, if that stuff came out today, what would happen? I think he still would be in trouble, but it wouldn't be the way it was. It would have been a different defense. And you're absolutely right. And you and I were talking this before the recording about how just our knowledge of just life and experience and watching news cycles and understanding how they work. If Me Too happened now, it would be an entirely because Me Too was also like a Twitter dominated type of cycle that everyone was in. But it's also based on the charges itself. Like, if you take a Lizzo and a Russell Brand, they're using the exact same playbook for response. But I don't think Lizzo's was appropriate because hers was workplace harassment, which I think her lawyers could have fixed for her and she could have reemerged. No, she made a big yeah, yeah, she definitely made a mistake. That was not the right way to deal with it because she ought such a clean image, unlike Russell Brand, and so much goodwill, that by responding, she actually created more certainty in the women's stories, like, oh, this is real. Whereas if she didn't respond, people would have been like, oh, maybe they're making it all up. Like, I don't exactly she hasn't even responded. But the deeper yeah, I mean, the fascinating thing now that Twitter is essentially imploding is to think about how the news cycles will shift. Because, I mean, certainly if Elon Musk puts a subscription on, like that is a subscription fee, that is the end of Twitter. But even right now, part of why people stopped responding, I think, for a while, is if you responded, there were these really, really smart writers and journalists on Twitter that would take apart your response. Explain exactly how it was BS. Make fun of it. Create some meme about it that could potentially take off and be viral, and then you could really do yourself damage. Right? Like, you almost didn't see that happen with Russell Brand. Like, you didn't see a Pylon where people sort of dissected his responses and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and make it way, way worse for him. Well, I did, but it's just me. But you're saying mean that's just what I do. Well, I'm saying, like, the greater the hive mind of the hive mind can really just lock into somebody. Yeah, I think because what you're touching on and what you and I are saying about Russell Brand is the PR strategy was was I don't want to call it brilliant, but it was good. In other words, he's placing a lot of emphasis on strategy right now in terms of reputation. And also with Twitter, he's sending out the signal to his followers, to his supporters, which a lot of them are on Twitter. That's where a lot of them are.

00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:42.509
And that type of when you get into misogyny social media, where there's profit for clicks and profit for content, it can support you. Just like Johnny Depp in the Trial. It is a whole new subculture of how you can use public relations, like, just the machinations of how you can work your way through it.

00:12:42.580 --> 00:13:14.981
So I think Russell Brand, I think you and I would agree as far as playbooks go, he's writing one right now that it's probably based a lot off of Donald Trump, and it works. It just doesn't help him legally, though. It doesn't help him legally. But the thing is that old thing where criminal defense attorneys used to say to people who were hiring them, you cannot say anything because if you say something, the judge won't like it, and it could affect people and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:13:15.046 --> 00:13:55.573
Like, I don't want you to say anything to anybody until this trial is wrapped or the plea is done. It doesn't really work anymore because juries go online, and if they don't see your perspective and what you have to say or at least your surrogates, you are potentially in trouble. Every criminal defense attorney you talk to is like, 100% of these stories are being told. Don't go online. And 100% of the people are going online and reading up about it. So if they see a nexium barrage of sex cult, worst person alive, blah, blah, blah, blah, with no response yes.

00:13:55.692 --> 00:14:14.426
Okay. So that's just the other strategic angle to it is you're putting the content, you're putting the information, you're putting the narrative out there. Now when there is an eventual court case, can you think of a case now? Because, I mean, you've been covering people for years, and you've been in this celebrity realm, political celebrity realm.

00:14:14.538 --> 00:14:42.422
Can you think of a case before TikTok, before Twitter, where a lawyer going hard on the defense, don't say anything. We're going to cover it. We're going to cover everything down and diminish it. And they got through it even though you knew they were guilty oh, my God. Where the strategy actually worked. I know. I don't like it either when people ask me to pull things from the back of my brain. I know it's hard.

00:14:42.556 --> 00:15:03.274
Did Casey Peterson say anything? She might not have said anything. Wait. Casey peterson. I mean, Casey the one with her daughter in the oh, Lacey. No, wait. We're Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson's wife was Lacey and their son Connor. And then there's Casey. Anthony.

00:15:03.402 --> 00:15:55.789
Anthony, yeah. Yes. Okay. I want to say she didn't say anything. She didn't say anything and she got off. You're right. And she's almost I mean, in just my opinion, but she is most likely guilty. Yes. But there are people out there, though, who think now that she's you know, people who are thinking that now. So I think wasn't there a Netflix show with it? There was. Yeah. I think somebody's making another one. Yeah, I mean, look, I could be like, how about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard? I mean, how do you think the media affected that? I'm not that close to that story. I'm curious what you think. Yeah, well, I just sat down for an interview with Vice. They're doing a series on the nine lives of celebrities. Like celebrities. Oh, I did this, too. I did this, too. That's so funny.

00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:04.429
We're in it together. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Oh, my gosh. So you did Johnny Depp, then?

00:16:04.580 --> 00:16:51.440
I did johnny Depp. Okay, that's really funny. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. I did johnny Depp. I did Arnold Schwarzenegger. I did Howard Stern, and I did Hulk Hogan. And then they had Paris. I did Paris, and they asked me if I could talk about Howard Stern. And I was like, dude, I do not know anything about Howard Stern. I can't do this for you. Can you believe this? This is really funny. All right, so if you did okay, I'll tell you what I said about Johnny, but tell me about Paris Hilton. So tell me about her. Was your angle, how she got through it? I mean, again, because I did all this access reporting. I spent a night with Paris. Not a night in Paris, but, like, a night with Paris. I had one of the greatest Rolling Stone experiences ever. Tell me.

00:16:51.970 --> 00:16:59.533
This was, like, seriously, two weeks before the sex tape came out, and I was assigned a story on her by Rolling Stone.

00:16:59.581 --> 00:17:23.865
It might have actually been my idea, and it was sort of off the Simple Life. It was just like a two or three page story. And so the publicist says, meet her at Koi. You guys are going to meet for dinner. This is where you go, blah, blah, blah. And I said, okay, great. And as I'm going there, the publicist calls and is like, hey, I know this is a little weird, but Paris doesn't have a car. Can you drive Paris home? And I was like, oh, yeah, I.

00:17:23.887 --> 00:17:34.554
Can get her in a car. Definitely drive Paris home. No problem. So I get to the restaurant. It's like, her and Nikki Hilton.

00:17:34.602 --> 00:17:42.125
And remember Casey Johnson, who was Tila Tequila's girlfriend for a little while? Who's the Johnson and Johnson heiress who died and all that?

00:17:42.228 --> 00:17:52.433
Oh, my goodness. So we're, like, having dinner, and then they're like, we're going to a club. Do you want to come? And I was like, sure. And they're like, okay. Paris gets in my car, and we were out

00:17:52.471 --> 00:18:03.013
00 A.m.. We actually got our purses stolen together. I was like, wow, we're really bonded. Like, I drove her back, and it was light outside.

00:18:03.211 --> 00:18:06.885
Oh, my gosh, I'd be so tired. Even thinking of that. Yes.

00:18:06.988 --> 00:18:10.730
So Paris's career is fascinating, right?

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:28.970
Because she was Kim before Kim. Kim definitely learned from her, from know Kim was her closet stylist, but then she sort of went into this weird dead zone, right? Like, where she was big in Japan, but not like, big here. And Kim sort of stole her thunder.

00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:36.253
And she's got something obviously weird going on with her mom and this need to be seen as like a perfect little girl.

00:18:36.451 --> 00:18:55.077
There's almost like that JonBenet thing happening. Like a high end John Bennet kind of mean. I hate to say this because I think Paris is actually really cool and really smart, but she did get married to somebody who was like, you are a business. Like, you're a business, and it's not going right.

00:18:55.163 --> 00:18:58.402
And I'm going to get this in shape.

00:18:58.465 --> 00:19:42.566
And I don't want to put down Paris and say she's not part of it, but certainly having a partner. Look, there are a lot of couples like that, right, where there's, like, one person who's helping the strategy of the other person. She's completely turned it around in the last two years. I thought her documentary was know, where she really showed who she was, and now she's being really smart and strategic, and she put out this book and she doesn't tell her whole story in the book. She just tells a little part. Yeah. Like a fishing expedition to get people in. Yeah. And she's more vulnerable now. Like, she's giving people insight into her early years and how she yeah, that's interesting because when they gave me the list of names, because some clearly, like, they had some big blow up and then they survived it.

00:19:42.587 --> 00:20:58.799
But I thought, oh, yeah, paris Hilton wasn't so much like a PR disaster. She was just such a fascinating person. And even remember the like, you remember they were, like, filming the helicopters about her. I think people felt sorry for her. I know, but the only part about this whole renovation of people's images that I sort of hate is also paris was, like, the number one mean girl in oh. She's very well known for a very cutting, nasty sort of sense of humor, putting people down almost like a drag queen sort of camp. But it's a little bit like, oh, my God, I do feel bad for her. She did go through horrible things. But let's also the comeuppance not too many tears, right, when she was also dancing on a table and the world was taking pictures of her and she was making, like, little nasty remarks and having the time of her life. That was fun. Yes. That's interesting. Yeah. The people at Studio 54 were traumatized, and that's why they were dancing. You know what I mean? Come on.

00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:03.933
Yeah. So she's like a Regina George, like a mean girl.

00:21:04.132 --> 00:21:45.086
But it's almost like she lost control again of her narrative, like, with the arrest and everything. That's when you could tell they were just kind of winging it. Like the Hilton brand was spiraling out of control and they couldn't contain it anymore. Oh, my God, that's so interesting. Yeah. So I feel the same way. When we talked about Johnny Depp. Now here we're breaking open their show before it even starts or comes out. But Johnny Depp had years of fandom behind him and like two cycles of it, he had eighty S, twenty one Jump Street Johnny Depp, and he was the bad boy, Viper Room, River Phoenix. But now he's a Disney guy and he's not a Disney villain. He's kind of this, you know, swarthy. Yeah.

00:21:45.188 --> 00:21:48.910
But, you know, happy go lucky Jack Sparrow, where he gets all these younger people.

00:21:49.059 --> 00:22:35.897
So when a trial happens, you know, with an Amber Heard whose career doesn't even it pales compared to Johnny Depp. So just from a fan perspective, she didn't have that goodwill support, but also, like I said, the monetization of misogyny and people talking about Johnny Depp and what Amber Heard's doing to him, it was a messy marriage that fell apart, that's just like anyone else's marriage. But because it was celebrities, we all saw it in real time. But Amber Heard had so many things going against her, and Johnny Depp knew that and it played it to his advantage. His legal team, I think, did that for him. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, sort of looks similar to Paris Hilton, but somehow she's like Amber Heard is too perfect, she's too cold.

00:22:36.074 --> 00:22:46.721
Yeah. So I think that that's basically what they used, is like, this is a Mansley marriage like anybody else's, and she's trying to make it way more than that and it's just not.

00:22:46.855 --> 00:23:01.410
Yes, I think honestly, it's something like the Gwyneth ski trial, which on my podcast, Infamous, we just did the trial, which was unbelievable because the audio from the trial and the video for the trial, as we all know, because we watched it for an entire week, is like gold.

00:23:01.490 --> 00:23:09.079
Like, it really is an iconic trial that she was part of. Wait, that didn't come out yet. It did.

00:23:10.009 --> 00:23:21.577
Yeah. I think it came out in August. Oh, in August. Oh, you already did it. Okay. But it's all there. If you go to like infamous, it's got a picture of a woman with a hand in front of her face.

00:23:21.663 --> 00:25:29.826
That feed has like, tons and tons of stories. And if you just scroll back, who. Is she supposed to be, by the way? Who is this woman supposed to be? She's supposed to be based off of. Someone I don't know. I think it's supposed to be like a Britney Paris, like, Lindsay sort of idea. I like it. I like it. But basically, Gwyneth has to have known going into that trial that she was going to win. And I bet you that Johnny Depp knew that there. These people are so smart about their public images that they don't take that step. That's a very radical step of putting yourself in that place of vulnerability. And they're not going to do it. They're not going to do it. But I do think one of the elements, though, with celebrity, whether it's Johnny Depp or Gwyneth Paltrow, because I was watching the whole Gwyneth experience happen. Because what I was noticing from my perspective is what she did just before the trial, how she created that was the Bone Broth podcast interview moment and where her brilliance in my mind is making goop like Quirky talk. Like people talk about like, oh my God, this is crazy. But she's strategic crazy. She's smart like a fox on that because it gets people talking totally about goop. So everybody was talking about that. And so, yes, going into that trial, anyone could go in after seeing his legal team and seeing him, that she was going to win it. But what celebrities don't have is a true sense and confidence on the control of what's going to happen when it's with the masses. We don't know what's going to go viral, who's going to uncover something that's going to spin it off into another direction. So there's that one element of fear that they do have. And yeah, that Gwyneth trial was man, was that fascinating. It was totally fascinating. Yeah. I think celebrities are more afraid now than they've ever been, even though they're physically a lot safer because there's a lot less paparazzi and there's like, I mean, I know that people have stalkers and all that for sure, who do public events, but there aren't those car chases right, the way there were for Britney Spears.

00:25:30.018 --> 00:26:12.369
But at the same time and they think they can control everything through their social media, but they can't. And it's very disturbing to them. And there was a system before that I was sort of a part of, but I was always, like, a little bit the fly in the ointment where it was like, okay, if you want to get on the COVID of Rolling Stone, you've got to spend three days with Vanessa. You've got to take her on tour with you, you've got to take her to your house, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in return, she might be a little bitchy, but she's basically going to return you like a really interesting biography of yourself, right? And then there were different magazines.

00:26:13.029 --> 00:26:42.586
Like everybody knew if you were on the COVID of Vanity Fair, you were going to get like a total blowjob, right? If you were a cover on the Rolling Stone, they really wanted you to say a couple crazy things. But it was going to be nice. New York magazine was probably going to be pretty like everybody sort of knew the deal and with the diminishment of any access journalism because a lot of people I don't think Beyonce has given an interview in like six or seven years now. Yeah, I just talked about that.

00:26:42.688 --> 00:26:54.114
Yes. Like, there's no real institutionalized journalism going on for a lot of celebrities. And they're pretty psyched about that, right?

00:26:54.152 --> 00:26:57.059
Because they didn't really want to do all this press to begin with.

00:26:57.589 --> 00:28:11.317
But the sort of devil's bargain is that they have less protection in terms of crazy memes taking off, somebody using their image now, an AI making something weird fake happen. And that going viral. The virality thing is, would you rather have a journalist who is somebody who does this for a living and is going to portray you in an interesting way, be the person that you give access to? Or would you rather have the entire Internet chiming in about some picture of you with cellulite? It's not even a contest, right? Yeah, it's complex. Because at the same time, I really roll my eyes when celebrities are like, everybody's being so mean to me. And it's like, grow up. Like, this is the bargain. You get fame and money, and in return, people get to leave mean comments on your Instagram page. Like, fucking grow know they're they're twisted. Their minds are all twisted. Okay, so this podcast has totally changed now. Okay? We're totally changed.

00:28:11.493 --> 00:28:32.794
This is my edit point. No, this is my edit point. I just marked it down because this is a whole new is. This is interesting. So I'm going to do this at a point we're going to jump back in because this is the topic I want to talk about. So let's do because I just did this interview yesterday with someone. It was their Vulture podcast with Vulture New Yorker.

00:28:32.842 --> 00:28:50.993
And we were talking about this very topic. So let's start off again, and let's do a then and now because you have experience with people. Like, you know what it was like to cover someone back then and how they don't have the same coverage now. So I'm going to jump back in about Rolling Stone. Okay? So who did you profile?

00:28:51.041 --> 00:28:54.261
Rolling Stone? Was it just Katy Perry? Let me look.

00:28:54.395 --> 00:29:26.337
Meanwhile, I also have to say you need to come on my podcast to talk about Meghan Markle at some point. Oh, sure. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I always turned down the Royal podcast because they always just want to destroy her in a mean, horrible way. It's like, no, I don't want to get into that. If you want to talk critically, I'll talk about it. But you definitely I would do that. In no, I mean, this is what my take is going to be. Okay, well, let's go back. We'll talk about it later. Yeah, no, we have to touch it. We have to touch it now. I interviewed a lot of people.

00:29:26.423 --> 00:29:58.153
Like Usher. Who else? Yeah, throw some names out. Like, who were you interviewing? Obviously, pre TikTok, even pre Twitter when you're working for a glossy and there's a relationship there. I mean, it is. A collaboration between you and their team. Who were some of the names like you said, Paris Hilton. Who are some of the other names that you spent time with when you were writing their stories? I mean, I did a massive story on Justin Bieber when he was 16 that I got in a lot of trouble for.

00:29:58.271 --> 00:30:01.180
Why? Oh, my God, it was so crazy.

00:30:01.549 --> 00:30:23.617
So I was obsessed with Justin Bieber in a way that was like I think people felt bad for me. People didn't understand. My friends would come over. I'd be like, can you see this boy in his video? He's so cute. I can't deal with it. He's so adorable. And so they were like, okay, who's going to write about Justin Bieber for Rolling Stone? And I was like, I am writing this.

00:30:23.703 --> 00:30:55.645
And so they said, come down to Atlanta. You'll hang out with him. He's going to take you ice skating. And I was like, oh, my God, justin Bieber is taking me ice skating. You ice skating? Well, I mean, traveling. And so I was like, what will I wear? And I spent so much time planning my outfit, packed my outfit, took it down to Atlanta, went to the hotel, ironed my outfit. All the time I'm thinking to myself, I don't know how I'm going to actually ice skate. How am I going to ice skate with this person?

00:30:55.827 --> 00:31:17.400
And then they were like, yeah, okay, he's going to pick you up outside the hotel and waiting. It's like, 2 hours late. I'm like, standing there, standing there, and finally this enormous SUV pulls up to the corner, door opens, and I was like and I was like, oh, my God, this is a child.

00:31:18.089 --> 00:31:50.480
He was, like, five two at this time. He had, like, braces on. And I was like, Hi. And he's like, hey, what's up? And I was like, oh, yeah, it's like, great to meet you. I'm really excited to go, like, ice skating. He was like, we're not going ice skating. That's so corny. And I was like, okay. I was just like, I can't believe he kept talking. I think he had invisalign and he kept on being like, oh, my God, this is so uncomfortable. And I was like, this was not the exactly.

00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:58.369
You had a much different Justin Bieber. And then all of a sudden he came like a child with a braces orthodontic problem. You're like, what am I doing here?

00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:01.890
It was so crazy. So you were in Atlanta. Were you in a skating?

00:32:02.950 --> 00:33:11.349
No, I mean, I just had, like, a nice skirt on, and I had, like, an A line know? But then I can't even went we did, like, a million things together, and we went to Dave and Buster's and then they know because we're Rolling Stone again, we would get this sick access. So we're like, don in Atlanta. And they're like, see you in La. In three days. And I was like, oh, my God, okay, I'm going to so, you know, I go to La. To meet up with him, and he's got like a whole tour. He's on The Tonight Show. He's on this, he's on that stuff with him. And Selena is starting to break. Like, are they going out or not? Yeah, I'm like sitting with him in a car. He's got it. Like his screen saver is Selena. I'm like, obviously he's with oh, okay, but we haven't had a sit down yet, right? Like, we've just been hanging because the whole thing with Rolling Stone is like, let's play pool, let's hang out, let's vibe, right? I'll be in the studio. I'll listen to listen to him sing a know, talk to his voice coach. Everybody was very concerned about the voice was changing, like, what was going to happen with the voice. And so I go to La. And, like, hanging out with his bodyguard downstairs in the Four Seasons.

00:33:12.009 --> 00:34:28.786
Was there a parent? Was his dad an idiot? His mom was there. His mom was there. Okay. But they canceled it or something. I can't remember. I had to come back again and I was like, sort of pissed because I'm like, TikTok, it's Rolling Stone, right? We don't wait. And so they usher me up to his room and the publicist is like, all right, you're going to do the sit down, check you later. And she leaves. And they had been so on me, like, on me, on me, like, hanging on me while I'm, like, playing pool. And then they're like, cool, you're doing the sit down, we're out. And I was like, who does that? This is where the questions are going to be asked what power move they left. And so this is what I got in trouble for. So basically, I thought, this is a guy who has control of a large amount of the young female population, right? So I should ask him some real questions. So I like, what is your opinion on abortion? What is your opinion on abortion with incest involved? Because he was like, killing a baby. It's wrong. And I was like, okay, well, what about in the cases of incest or something?

00:34:28.967 --> 00:34:46.342
And so he gave a good answer. He was like, I'm not really sure sort of answer I have to think about that. Had like I asked him some political like, we had just basically like a little, like, let's have a real chat and see what's going on in your brain. Vanessa, can I ask you a question? Can I just ask you a question right now?

00:34:46.476 --> 00:35:39.530
So you're with a 16 year old. And you're in that's what the right? You're in Dave and Busters, you're doing all this other stuff, right? So I get like, now in a journalist's mind, so you have Justin Bieber and you recognize how much power and influence this kid has. I'm curious, what was the outcome? You were after with those types of questions with Justin Bieber? Well, I think at that time, everybody was trying to understand how Christian he was, which did become a thing later on, right. And where this kid was at in terms of his real beliefs about women and society and family and what exactly was going on because they had remade him from a little Christian singer right into this massive pop sex symbol superstar.

00:35:40.110 --> 00:35:43.561
So that was what I was trying to get to.

00:35:43.615 --> 00:36:23.800
Now, basically the question is, was it inappropriate to ask those questions because he was almost 17, but was it inappropriate because he was 16? And so I don't know. I mean, now I have a daughter who's eleven and I can't even imagine in five years asking her those questions, even if she was a star like Justin Bieber. Right. At the same time, Justin Bieber is a product that's being sold. And I think we've crossed over as a country where people's political beliefs are important. It's important to know because they're going to speak out on them.

00:36:24.329 --> 00:36:31.945
And so it was sort of important to know who he was really apart from the product.

00:36:32.128 --> 00:37:16.070
From the product. Okay, so Justin Bieber, then to Justin Bieber now with Hailey Bieber, baldwin Bieber. What do you see when you see Justin Bieber now? And you were in the car at a Dave and Buster's with a kid? What do you see when you see him now? I mean, I'm sort of impressed first of all that he's still here, right? Like, the idea that he is a teen idol that was able to cross over into having an adult remember, that was really not the way it happened before. He was supposed to be on the ash pile of mean. Obviously it's interesting given the recent news that he's not going to work with Scooter Braun anymore. I mean, what I hear through the grapevine is Hailey Bieber is real smart.

00:37:16.489 --> 00:37:23.260
She also comes from a celebrity family, right, where she grew up, really understanding how this all works.

00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:55.059
And she maybe like Paris Hilton's husband, is very invested in the business of Justin Bieber. And so when you talk to Justin now, you're talking to the two of them and they're figuring out what the best way to play everything is together. So it seems to me like he's doing pretty like, do I think his music is going to sell forever? I don't know about like do I like the music he's putting out? Not really. Like, I only like those early.

00:37:59.590 --> 00:39:52.329
It'S a different know. And it is interesting that Haley coming from she doesn't come from Alec, she comes from Stephen, who in terms of the know, the Baldwin hierarchy, he know his moments like the usual suspects, but he was not premier. So you see like a Haley growing up almost strategically thinking, okay, what is my play here? I mean, even her career has been remarkable and now just the influencing brand that she has. So now, have you interviewed Britney Spears? No, I haven't interviewed Britney Spears, but I wrote the very famous Britney Spears cover where she's in black and white and it says like, an American Tragedy on it, which was basically based on me spending two months with all the people who were covering her when she had her breakdown. When she had a breakdown. So what do you think is happening now? This is actually the story, like, best known, basically. Yeah. So the story that I wrote know about all the paparazzi and the whole industry of covering Britney Spears and also the way that she was part of it, right? Like, that she would do these crazy car. Like, that I went, like, I went and put my body in danger. I was like, if I die on a Britney Spears car, like, I really am humiliated. Not put that in the yeah, you know. So I was up close and personal with her a lot, and she was playful in the way that you see her now with the paparazzi. Right. Don't forget, remember, she started dating one of them and they ran off to Mexico. So it wasn't as simple as it's been portrayed now where she was the victim. Certainly they were the aggressors, right? But there was a very complex, weird thing going on that was obviously related to mental illness, and the judge at that time was talking about drug.

00:39:52.909 --> 00:40:45.514
So I have gone through a really interesting journey with that whole story where this is a story that's taught in journalism. Like, it's a really weird, interesting story. There's a very famous journalism story called Frank Sinatra Has A Cold. And it's a writer who just an older writer who just observes Frank Sinatra and never interviews him. This is a very similar story about Britney Spears, but people thought it was too harsh on Britney. And in the time of her documentaries and Free Britney and everything like that, I became, like, not a huge villain, but every once in a while people would be like, what is this? Yeah, you're part of the problem for Britney. And it was written in a way that was supposed to be very provocative and like, William Burroughs ish and there's a lot of language in there that I maybe wouldn't stand behind today.

00:40:45.632 --> 00:41:15.442
But all that being said, I was like, how is this happening that everybody's on this bandwagon of Britney is totally fine and the media is at fault? And her father look, she always has this horrible relationship with her father. So I definitely think something happened there with the conservatorship that was not kosher. But I think you can see from her videos today that this is not a person who is. Well, yeah, I think everyone's in agreement on that. Correct?

00:41:15.576 --> 00:41:18.978
Do you think? I mean, they weren't a year ago.

00:41:19.143 --> 00:41:25.893
Well, I just read about her mother, and I don't know if this was tabloid. I don't know if I saw it in TMZ or New York Times.

00:41:25.931 --> 00:42:01.969
I have no idea. Clearly not new York Times. But that she is back at work. Like, she's working just like she's either I don't know what her profession is. Maybe you remember. I don't know if she's a nurse or whatever or a teacher maybe, but they don't have that financial funnel coming in anymore. But it seemed like it was such a dysfunctional family, like the marriage was dysfunctional. The dad before, he was a bad father, he was a bad husband, and there's just dysfunction in that family. But it's interesting to see a Justin Bieber, a Britney Spears and like a Justin Timberlake to see how their career. I've interviewed him, too. Of course you did.

00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:23.793
So tell me the difference between now Justin now. Okay. Justin Timberlake, I have to say so Justin Timberlake was the most normal person I've ever interviewed. And that really was a really normal but also it was like a really weird moment. He came and he picked me up at my house, and I was like, I'll just meet you at the restaurant.

00:42:23.842 --> 00:42:54.925
They were like, he's going to pick you up at your house? I was like, okay, that's pretty dope. Are you in New York or La. No, this was in La. Okay. Then he came in some car that's way too fancy for me even to know the name of it and we went to a museum. Well, what circa is this? What circa is he solo at this point. This is when he was was he married? No, he wasn't married. Okay. And basically what had happened, okay. It's called a free man in La. And it's 2011, okay?

00:42:55.047 --> 00:43:01.880
And he's 30 years old, and he had just done friends with benefits.

00:43:02.570 --> 00:44:47.398
And so he was in a breakup with Jessica Beale. And he was so depressed and so bummed out about this breakup and basically couldn't you know when you interview somebody and you're like, this is not a real person? When you're talking to Justin Timberlake, he was like a real person, where he was I can't even answer your question because I'm so bummed about my breakup right now that can we just sit here and have some we went to a hole in the wall Thai place. He was just, like, almost like, crying. Crying. This is not great copy, but I really like you. You're so nice, and I feel for you, Vanessa. So this was for Vanity Fair and oh, my God, the photo, the COVID photo on that. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. So the Timestamp on this, he was dating Jessica Beale, but they broke up. Did it seem like she broke up with him? I think it seemed like she broke up with him. Okay. Yeah. And do you think this is a skeptic of me, right? You're the journalist, I'm the PR person. Do you think he was doing that on purpose to make you feel sympathy for him? Maybe a little bit, but well, I think the thing is, Justin Timberlake knows he's a heartthrob, right? So he knows sort of being like, oh, I'm so sensitive and my girlfriend has dumped me, is going to play really well. But he also I think it's really interesting. I was talking to a friend of mine about Angelina Jolie the other day, and he's interviewed her. You know, I was just going to ask about Brad and Angelina. So I've never interviewed her. But he's interviewed her like three or four times. And he said she always comes in with like, a story.

00:44:47.563 --> 00:45:01.882
She's like, she's come she's figured out a story that she knows you'll, like, she knows what she's going to reveal, and she's going to give you this prepackaged idea and it's going to be really well told and you can base your piece around it.

00:45:02.016 --> 00:45:31.942
And Justin Timberlake definitely was not doing that. He was just sort of like modeling. And I actually feel like Justin Timberlake what exactly is the beef about? Said the nipple gate and then a couple of things he said about Spears, like, the guy has been around forever. You mean the beef of people kind of turning yeah, exactly. Like the idea that people are turning on Justin Timberlake and he's a horrible person.

00:45:31.996 --> 00:45:35.494
It's like you could barely find anything. This guy's been around for like 25 years.

00:45:35.532 --> 00:45:53.230
In the public eye, he'd have a lot more dirt if he was really a bad guy. If you think back to nipplegate when that happened, and you would know better than me the year I don't remember the Super Bowl. I think it's like late 90s or something. Yeah, late ninety s. To me, that was like one of the first times.

00:45:53.380 --> 00:46:21.253
I remember like an example where people felt that Janet Jackson was victimized, that it was all a big setup and she ended up being the victim because she was the one who took all the hit from that, the public hit. But then it swung around and came back on Justin Timberlake. And I feel like that was the first time I saw that kind of swing happen. And it makes me think in my mind, where were we in the culture wise? I think we were kind of just in the Twitter world back then, right? No, we weren't on it.

00:46:21.291 --> 00:46:28.210
We weren't even on social media. No, we had no social not social legacy.

00:46:28.289 --> 00:47:30.438
It's like, whatever, he ripped her thing off. Like he was never going to get out of that. He did it, but she obviously they planned it. You know what I mean? Exactly. Did it. Yeah, it was television. I'm not saying that's, like the greatest thing that they did that was sort of stupid, but I'm just saying from my perspective, he's a nice, normal guy. He doesn't deserve to have this weird flak thrown at him. Yeah, okay, so then if we have to so then we could wrap here, which I don't even want to, but, I mean, just for the sake of time. I know, but now, like, all those celebrities, singers, artists in that realm, so we're 90s, they're younger. They're all still relevant today, which is incredible at different levels in their career. What's the through line with them? What they all share, the commonality that maybe speaks to their relevance. But where do they veer off? Like, why is Justin Justin and Britney Spears as Britney? Is there anything beyond just the mental illness portion of it and the challenges?

00:47:30.614 --> 00:48:29.130
But is there something about just looking at those three, the Justin's and Brittany? The two, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, Justin Justin and, like, you've done so many interviews with child artists, stars that are so relevant today, or not, or even you're talking about Paris Hilton. Is there something that they have that gives them that staying power that they can go from an age before social media even existed? They're teen mags, but now they're still here, and they haven't gone off the rails. Like, what is it? I mean, okay, on a public level, I think it's like, how much can they continue to tap into that nostalgia, right? Like, how much can they continue to have people interested in your story since I was watching you since you were a kid and you've developed this way, and I find it really interesting, right? Like, it's so little about the actual music. It's all about the personality and the ways you're twisting it and blah, blah, blah.

00:48:29.289 --> 00:49:09.739
But on a personal level, I think you know that all of these people there's four key people around them, right? Like the manager, the mom or the dad, the childhood best friend and the record label guy or something like that. And it's a question of how strong those people are and if they start manipulating you, which was the case with Brittany, right? Like, she got really manipulated when she was young and how much those people want your money. What were the deals like that you made when you were, know, Taylor Swift? Both of Tarala Swift's parents were well off. Educated people.

00:49:10.909 --> 00:49:40.117
Know, she might not have gotten the masters and blah, blah, blah, blah, but she was pretty well set up when she was young. So that entourage, I think, is a key factor in what will happen to you later. And Brittany's entourage, and particularly, like, her parents, was a very difficult relationship. A difficult relationship with the like, Britney just has some really bad genetics in her family. Oh, that's so interesting.

00:49:40.204 --> 00:50:24.398
Can we just end on Taylor Swift, then? Yes. Did you ever interview Swift? Interview taylor Swift. I mean, I'm thinking about doing something about Taylor Swift, because it's like, I cannot believe that she just gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day. What is it? What is it, Vanessa, and you, more than anyone, can figure this out. What is it about? I really don't know. I don't know. I mean, her music is genuinely pretty good. People actually really like it. But what is it? I mean, the thing is, she always was just so good at tapping into the 19 year old part of each person. That's where she is. But I also think she is incredibly strategic.

00:50:24.494 --> 00:50:28.141
I'm not sure any of these relationships she's had are real relationships.

00:50:28.206 --> 00:50:31.239
I have no idea which one is real, which one is not real.

00:50:32.409 --> 00:51:01.306
I don't want to know what her sexual identity is. I don't think we know any of that. Her strategic brain and the way that she's been able to keep the music at a really high level and also the image at a high level is sort of shocking. I'm with you the same way, but, you know, what you've touched on to is that Entourage piece and her parents and her parents having because the father, he has experience, like, in the music industry. Banker. No, I think he was a banker.

00:51:01.338 --> 00:52:02.402
He just has money. He just has experience with money. Yeah. And knows people. And knows people. Maybe that's what I read. So I think it's a mix of that theory, though, because you've seen it firsthand, is, you know, the people who you surround yourself with are going to set you up for that type of success. And Taylor Swift probably had that very sheltered, protected, but also strategic parenting and Entourage. But I'm like you. I think her magic comes into knowing when and where to tap into what she needs to tap into that will create it around her. And where I think her genius is, is she's very predictive. Like, she's the one who can figure out what's coming next. Or if she knows she has so much power, she's just going to create it. She knows how to create those types of moments because she wields so much influence. It's incredible. Yeah, she's just like the ultimate sort of pretty girl in the back of the class that nobody paid attention to, who then was able to observe everything and then real self.

00:52:02.536 --> 00:52:10.130
I mean, I was in her childhood bedroom when she was 19, when she was already a huge star. She was on tour.

00:52:10.289 --> 00:52:24.373
I went to her house, and I was in her childhood bedroom, and it was like any 19 year old's bedroom. Wait, you're telling me there's not, like, strings on the wall where she's already planning her life? Like a murder wall? Like, she already has her eggs?

00:52:24.501 --> 00:53:12.710
No, it was like all her I mean, I'm vaguely remembering she was writing all her little valentines to the people in her class. Oh, wow. She showed me all the letters she and her friends had written to each other, and she was, like, keeping them in a box. She just was like a prodigy who was also brought up like a normal parents tried to give her. They moved to Nashville because they thought she was so talented, but they also wanted her to have a normal high school experience and try to give her a normal life. So she wasn't, like, flying all over the place and couldn't really go to school. So she was like a prodigy. She was no different than, like, a prodigy who plays violin or something like that, where she had this voice.

00:53:12.869 --> 00:53:20.554
But they also tried to give her I really think her parents were just, like, solid. They spotted it, know? Yeah.

00:53:20.672 --> 00:53:28.000
And they had money, and they weren't I mean, Justin Bieber, remember, he was living in a project. His mother didn't have money for food.

00:53:29.329 --> 00:55:13.085
That's where a lot of these kids who become stars come from. They come from that sense of survival. Yeah. When I compare the two, like, Justin Bieber, who, you know, with the parents and how he grew up, and he's the YouTube kid, right? Like He Sparks on YouTube. But Taylor Swift and her parents plot, plot, plot, plot while supporting her in a very safe environment. When you were in her bedroom or you were interviewing Taylor Swift, did you see any of this? Did you know she was going to have lasting power? And did you know that she would have this type of lasting power, that she would be who she is right now? I mean, I thought she was, like, sick very talented. And I remember when I was at her house, I think it was her mom was talking about how could she preserve all her costumes? Like, should they try to put them in a storage or should they save them? And it was, like, not even for sure that they were going to do any of that, right. And they were thinking about if they should do it. And I think that it was clear to me, like, yes, you should definitely do this. You should definitely make you have a storage that has everything she's ever worn, because one day there'll be, like, a museum show of Taylor Swift's concert outfits at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame or something like that. But, I mean, I didn't know that it was going to be, like, 2023. Aristotle type of Taylor Swift. Here's my theory now. You've helped me develop a theory here, Vanessa, because I get asked constantly about Taylor Swift on social media, about dating. I'm with you. I think every person she dates is an opportunity, and I think she may like like, they may work for her like this.

00:55:13.108 --> 00:55:28.418
Travis Kelsey I think they're having fun, whatever, but it's all PR. I think everything she I bet, you know, and she gets all this credit. I'm actually writing an article right now, Forbes.com, about just her strategic mind. But what's enlightening I think it comes from the parents.

00:55:28.594 --> 00:55:39.557
I think her parents were strategic, like what you're sharing right now is they knew they plotted to go to that's a big deal, to go to Nashville and they saw it.

00:55:39.643 --> 00:55:53.710
So they maybe imprinted this idea of how to be strategic in the long run. And that's why she is who she is today. Let's give it to the parents, because we all know as parents, we have so much to do with kids, how. They do it nowadays. That's the theory I'm going with.

00:55:53.780 --> 00:56:43.360
Oh, my gosh. Vanessa, I will just have to say this will be episode one in our series of deconstructing celebrities. You and I are going to go on tour. Like, who wants to hear us? My thanks to Vanessa Grigoriadis for joining me on this episode, and thanks to you, listener, for sitting through a woefully unprepared topic. But who am I kidding? I could talk about stories like that for hours. That's all for this week on the podcast. Be sure to chime in with your takes on this week's episode on my social media channels and of course, PR Confidential. Now back on Patreon. Just look up PR confidential, my name. Look for the photo of me with my phone and let me know what you think. That's it for this week, everyone. Bye for now.