261: Flipping the Script: How WGA Outmaneuvered Hollywood Studios in the Strike - A Conversation with Michael Jamin

Molly McPherson [00:00:01]:

And then I'm writing a Forbes article about it because the editor wants I already said I said I already got an interview, and so they're so excited.

Michael Jamin [00:00:11]:

Good.

Molly McPherson [00:00:12]:

Okay, ready? So is there anything else that you can add to it? So I'm not pulling you during the recording.

Michael Jamin [00:00:17]:

You can pull on me, but I'll try to be good.

Molly McPherson [00:00:20]:

No, I don't want to pull. I want you to tell me something. I don't know what else is different.

Michael Jamin [00:00:25]:

That happened that changed from this strike? From the last strike?

Molly McPherson [00:00:28]:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin [00:00:28]:

Is there anything else? Social media, I would say, yeah. The fact that the social media kept the writers united, kept the public on our side. We told our story, the actors were behind us. That's kind of it. Yeah, that's kind of it.

Molly McPherson [00:00:48]:

That's good.

Michael Jamin [00:00:49]:

Okay.

Molly McPherson [00:00:49]:

You had stakeholders. Okay. All right, so we're just going to start with them. All right. Ready?

Michael Jamin [00:00:55]:

Yep.

Molly McPherson [00:00:56]:

Okay. Michael Jammon, I'm speaking to you on the other side of the strike, almost. Hello.

Michael Jamin [00:01:05]:

Hello, Molly. Nice to see you again.

Molly McPherson [00:01:08]:

Nice to see you again. This is our first formal meeting.

Michael Jamin [00:01:13]:

Yes, but we're old friends. We're young friends.

Molly McPherson [00:01:16]:

I know we're young friends, but this is the first time we're doing something formally. Like everything we've done has been informal up to this point.

Michael Jamin [00:01:24]:

I know. Let's see, we have our two men volleyball team, our coed volleyball team that we play on, being the beach. What else do we do?

Molly McPherson [00:01:33]:

Well, that one time we did Pickleball, Pickleball.

Michael Jamin [00:01:36]:

We do our triathlons right on your back. And you carry me. We do a lot of things.

Molly McPherson [00:01:41]:

Carry you? Yes, I do. So speaking of carrying you thank you. Speaking of carrying me well, I mean, the timing on this. So it's been a couple days since we all heard the news that the writer strike oh, my gosh. Is over. I mean, not officially, but it sounds like if I'm watching all of your interviews on CNN, taking notes, you're feeling pretty optimistic about it. So before we get into the strike, just briefly tell everyone who you are. As if they don't know already.

Michael Jamin [00:02:12]:

Right. My name is Michael Jammon. I'm a TV writer for about 27 years. I've written on a bunch of shows. I'll run through them fast because I'll do it fast. King of the Hill just shoot Me beavis and Butthead out Of Practice rules of Engagement wilfred Marin Brickleberry Lopez glenn Martin DDS. I'm looking. I have a wall.

Michael Jamin [00:02:38]:

My resume on the wall. So a bunch of shows.

Molly McPherson [00:02:41]:

The who's who of the 90s catalog.

Michael Jamin [00:02:45]:

Yes. The who's who was yes. Remember when but speaking of just shoot.

Molly McPherson [00:02:51]:

Me, just as an aside, I was driving somewhere, and as you know, all I do is drive, but I drove by a sign for David Spade. Is he doing something new? Are you noticing? David Spade? It was a big promo.

Michael Jamin [00:03:06]:

Yeah, well, he has two things going. He has a talk show. I don't know if it's still on, but he also has a podcast with Dana Carvey.

Molly McPherson [00:03:12]:

It's not the Dana Carvey that's fly on the wall. And it wasn't his talk show, which I really liked on Comedy Central. But David Spade is doing like, I think, a big show somewhere. Oh, my gosh.

Michael Jamin [00:03:23]:

Now that maybe it was his line of skincare.

Molly McPherson [00:03:27]:

Maybe. But when I saw it, I was driving and I thought of you, and I thought, oh, I got to ask Michael what Dave was up to. But always hustling, right? Like, this is an industry. Yeah, he works where people are always hustling, as are you. I mean, so many people know you from TikTok now. I know the background. That's how I know you. Exactly.

Molly McPherson [00:03:46]:

But you're a screenwriter. I mean, TV writer. You're a behind the scenes guy. So just what is it about TikTok that called you?

Michael Jamin [00:03:54]:

So I have a collection of a book coming out. It's a collection of personal David. It's david Sedaris meets Neil Simon and my agent.

Molly McPherson [00:04:03]:

We're going with I'm sorry.

Michael Jamin [00:04:05]:

That's what we're going with.

Molly McPherson [00:04:06]:

Simon OK. Tell me the qualities of each that you see yourself in, that you merge in the middle.

Michael Jamin [00:04:11]:

Well, Sedaris. He writes beautifully. I don't write in his love. I can read anything he writes. If he writes a menu. I'll read that Neil Simon as a kid, I remember thinking, man, he was the you know, I love that play. He was in the movie. Yeah.

Michael Jamin [00:04:30]:

As well as Christopher Walken. And I acted in that play in college. That's another story. That's another story for a different podcast. Do you have another podcast where I talk about that?

Molly McPherson [00:04:41]:

Where I just talk about where I.

Michael Jamin [00:04:42]:

Can talk about that? I'm asking you don't pick up a hint, do you? What was I saying? Oh, yeah. And then I saw as a kid, laughter on the 42nd floor or something like that. It was laughter on some floor, 23rd floor, whatever it was, which was his. He was a writer on your show of shows with Sid Caesar, with Mel Brooks and Woody Allen. Like all these greats for writers. And I remember seeing that on Broadway. My dad took me that see, on Broadway. I was like, oh, I got to do that.

Michael Jamin [00:05:09]:

I want to be that.

Molly McPherson [00:05:10]:

Oh, so that was with you.

Michael Jamin [00:05:12]:

It was Broadway. I went to see the show, and I was like, I want to be in a room like that. I want to be in a comedy room like that with those great writers. That was in the past. But that's what really motivated me to move to Hollywood and become a writer.

Molly McPherson [00:05:28]:

Did you watch Dick Van Dyke when you were a kid?

Michael Jamin [00:05:30]:

Sure.

Molly McPherson [00:05:31]:

And did you love it for that reason, that they were in a wasn't.

Michael Jamin [00:05:34]:

It didn't really feel like that was what a comedy writer's room was. And it's not. I've never been in a comedy writing room, like, you know, okay with a rosemary.

Molly McPherson [00:05:43]:

Is that the problem?

Michael Jamin [00:05:43]:

But they were no, because it was just two people at a desk and then Dick Van Dyke. And I was like, It doesn't work that way. Usually it's a big roundtable, and everyone sits around a table, and it's a lot more boisterous. It's a lot more like laughter on the 42nd floor or whatever that number is. It's a lot more like that. It's more like well, I would say like a frat house, but I was not in a fraternity, so I wouldn't really know.

Molly McPherson [00:06:07]:

No, you were too busy playing football at Princeton. But now for people who follow you on TikTok, I mean, now you talk about what it's like being a TV writer when you work with a partner and you're pitching a lot more. So that's a whole different environment for you. So what is it like, pre strike, give me an average day for you?

Michael Jamin [00:06:26]:

There's no average day. It depends whether I'm on a show or trying to sell a show. If I'm on a show, you could easily be working. It's not uncommon to work 12 hours a day. If you're not doing a show, then I'm working with my writing partner, coming with ideas, taking meetings, trying to sell it. It's a lot more hustle. It's a lot more like, let's sell something.

Molly McPherson [00:06:45]:

Yeah, and I see I notice on your TikTok that you bring a different side to it. You open up a different door for people to come in and understand the industry, that it's not these high paid writers and creatives sitting around just cashing in all the checks that there is a hustle there. Like, you're always trying to pitch a show, sell a show, and the money isn't guaranteed to come.

Michael Jamin [00:07:12]:

No, no, not at all. I mean, certain writers, like JJ. Abrams, they make a lot of money, but most of us are not living his life. So most of us are just constantly.

Molly McPherson [00:07:20]:

Selling, which I think played into the strike and the narrative of the strike. So you and I could talk about, like, 18 billion things, which is what we talk about. But right now, let's just focus on the strike. I feel far more knowledgeable about it just because of you. I mean, you've enlightened me, along with so many other people, about the strike. But one thing I've noticed about your coverage is you really put the human aspect on it and the kind of the everyday person I didn't know I was doing that.

Michael Jamin [00:07:52]:

I really didn't thought I was just talking, and it was like, but you are.

Molly McPherson [00:07:57]:

But people, you're bringing them behind the scenes in a sense. And people look at the SAG after know, they hear know Fran Drescher up there. I mean, she's the president and she's the know, leading the charge, and all these actors are out there. And when we think of actors in Hollywood we think of money. But a lot of these writers who do fine, but you're saying, like, the majority of them are just like regular people just trying to get a paycheck, like everyone yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin [00:08:21]:

Middle class. Yeah, if we're lucky. Middle class.

Molly McPherson [00:08:23]:

Middle class if you're lucky. And that's where I think you did an exceptional job working as like, a de facto spokesperson for the industry. I mean, you weren't official by any means. No, but you were really advocating for them. So when did the strike start?

Michael Jamin [00:08:43]:

Good question. I would say it was like three and a half months ago. So when is that? May or something? I don't know. Was it the first day of May or something?

Molly McPherson [00:08:51]:

Yeah. End of May. Beginning of June. Did you all know? So you remember the Members Guild? I mean, the Writers Guild of America? So did you all know?

Michael Jamin [00:08:59]:

This was my friend? So before the strike happened, the Writers Guild sends out what's called a pattern of demands. I was going to post about this, or maybe I already did, and the pattern demands tells everyone, this is what we think we're going to fight for. Are you guys cool? Is this what you want? Are you cool with this? And the pattern of demands this year, it goes out every three years because the contract is up for every three years. So this year I look at them and it looked unlike any pattern of demands they ever put out. And it was like because the business model changed so much with streaming, that now the guild was saying, okay, we got to rethink how you're paying us because you're paying us on the old business model pre streaming. And so when you look at the pattern, it was like they were almost starting from scratch. And I was like, oh, no, I think what we're asking for was very fair, but you're asking the studios to do a lot of work and do a lot of rethinking, and no one wants to do that. They just want to keep status quo.

Michael Jamin [00:09:55]:

And so thinking about that, I was like, okay, this is going to be a big ask. It's not like we want to raise or percent rate. It's bigger than that. And then they had a guild meeting one night to talk about this. Everyone was invited, even me. I didn't go because my jeep was in the shop, which is where it always is.

Molly McPherson [00:10:18]:

It doesn't sound like a good excuse, but anyway, go on.

Michael Jamin [00:10:21]:

Well, I can't get there. So my friend Brian went, who's about my age, and he went, and when he comes back, I talked to him, what was it like? What was the mood like? He goes, oh, it's not good. And I go, Why? Because the kids, they've had it. The kids have had it. And by kids, he meant the 35 year old millennials. Yeah, okay, they're fed up, they're done. And I go, what are the odds that there's going to be a strike? He goes, 1000%.

Molly McPherson [00:10:52]:

Oh, really? He just knew from that meeting?

Michael Jamin [00:10:55]:

Yeah, because you can't get what you need unless you have two tools. When you negotiate, everyone thinks you need better leadership, but no, they have two cards to play strike and Threat of Strike and Threat of Strike. You can't play unless you strike. So that's it. That's your only choice. And the studios let us go on strike. They're like, Fine, go on strike. And that lasted for three and a half months.

Michael Jamin [00:11:19]:

They never made any real concessions during the regular negotiating bargaining. But then finally, four days ago, they said, okay, let's make a deal. And they hammered out a deal in four days. It doesn't take long to hammer out a deal when both sides are willing to negotiate.

Molly McPherson [00:11:35]:

Right. Now, you said something that never really occurred to me before, but I think this could be something when your buddy said, they're all hot, right? Like, they is it? Now, the fact that so many writers, like maybe so many more younger people are in the industry and younger people millennials are maybe more justice driven, do you think or do you think that had something to do with it? Because guys like you, you're home simply because you don't have a ride. But all the other younger people, they probably did whatever they could to get to that meeting. But tell me, I mean, do you think that had something to do with it?

Michael Jamin [00:12:12]:

I don't think so. I just think it's harder for them if you're new to the business, I think it's easier to break in, but it's harder to sustain a career. Whereas I'm at the point in my career, I've been doing it so long, I don't have some of those obstacles that they have the network. It's like, okay, they got that first job. Well, how do you get a second one? And the first job only lasts for them eight weeks. Great, I got a job, but it's over. That's all they wanted to hire you for is eight weeks because that was the contract length. Now you're screwed because you're only doing eight episodes or whatever.

Michael Jamin [00:12:43]:

So they might hire you through pre production because the orders are shorter. So when I broke in years ago, if you were on a hit show so most writers get paid per episode produced. If you're on a hit show, like I was for the first ten years of my career, I was doing 22 or 24 episodes in a year. So that's like ten months worth of work. That's a great amount worth of work. But now if you're on a hit show, you're doing maybe two months or three months worth of work because you're only doing eight episodes. That's a hit show, and so you're screwed. What about the other nine months out of the year?

Molly McPherson [00:13:21]:

Okay, so now there was the first strike or I don't know if it was the first strike, but I mean, one the last one that everyone's familiar with was in 2008, correct?

Michael Jamin [00:13:32]:

Yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:13:33]:

Okay, so what were you doing in 2008 when the strike happened?

Michael Jamin [00:13:37]:

Oh, God. So I, at the time, had an overall deal with CBS Productions, which meant I was getting paid. I know. Did I impress you, Molly?

Molly McPherson [00:13:45]:

Well, no, I didn't know you were at CBS.

Michael Jamin [00:13:49]:

CBS Productions.

Molly McPherson [00:13:51]:

Weren't they the ones that put out Drew Barrymore show?

Michael Jamin [00:13:54]:

I don't know. I don't so at the time, I was a writer on a show called out of Practice. They liked what me and my partner were doing. They said, hey, why don't we give you an overall deal, which is a guaranteed salary. In addition, we have to develop for them, and they pay us to develop other shows. Perfect. It was a two year deal, and so we just finished year one of the deal. Year two, they put us on Rules of Engagement as part of our deal.

Michael Jamin [00:14:24]:

Then the strike hit, and then they forced majurt us, which meant our contract was broken. So we left a lot of money on the table. That was a bummer, but that's just how it goes sometimes. They broke our deal, basically, which is.

Molly McPherson [00:14:37]:

A term that many people are familiar with now just because of the pandemic. That'd be a term that force majeure. Not that many people knew about it, but they do now. So in 2008, it was different, wasn't it, then? So compared to this strike. So that's what I want to ask you about, is what makes this strike different from 2008? Do you consider it a victory, the strike?

Michael Jamin [00:15:01]:

So far, none of us have seen the terms yet, but the guild is very excited about it. So when they're in a good mood see, usually when they send out an email to everyone at the end of the negotiations, the email is like it sounds like this. Listen, we did our best. We'll lick our wounds, and we'll fight another fight tomorrow. Next time we got something. We didn't get everything right, but this time they sent the email, and it was very like, guys, you're not going to believe this.

Molly McPherson [00:15:28]:

Oh, wow. It's like the Conclave and the Pope, like, you know that something happened. Okay, all right. So that's exciting from what you know, and based on what really happened, let's just highlight what changed in terms of strike negotiating, strike tactics. I mean, this was a very public battle that people from the outside were certainly following along, particularly on social media and other people chiming in on it. Like people like me. Yeah, exactly. Because I liked all the crazy nuances about it.

Michael Jamin [00:16:06]:

Are we going to order dinner, Ollie? I haven't seen the waiter.

Molly McPherson [00:16:10]:

No. Is that a part you think that's part of my podcast? You think I have the budget?

Michael Jamin [00:16:13]:

Well, yeah. I thought we were going to have dinner. Having a dinner together.

Molly McPherson [00:16:18]:

Exactly. What do you think? This is Bob. Iger in Idaho. In Sun Valley, Idaho. So let's start with Bob Iger.

Michael Jamin [00:16:25]:

Well, there's a couple of things that changed. Okay. First, and I think I'm the only one who's publicly said this, so maybe I'm wrong.

Molly McPherson [00:16:31]:

Really? Okay.

Michael Jamin [00:16:32]:

Yeah. This is my feeling. So in 2008 well, I think the studios have lost their leverage this time. They misplayed their hand. In 2008, their leverage was, if you guys go on strike, you might be out of work for three months. Can you really afford to be out of work for three months? That's how I felt then. I was like, yikes, this is going to be awful. 2023, because of the term length of the contracts, most writers are already out of work six to nine months out of the year.

Michael Jamin [00:16:58]:

That's what the strike is about. So the threat of being out of work for three months, that sounds like an improvement to me. So now you've got a bunch of writers who are already picking up part time gigs to make it through, professional writers who are already hustling on the side. What difference does it make if I'm on strike, if I'm not employed? So they lost that leverage. They painted themselves in that corner of the studios.

Molly McPherson [00:17:21]:

And that's the part that I find so interesting. And I'm going to tell you, even though you brushed it aside in your Princeton Ivy League way, like, I'm standing there in my Bu sweatshirt and you're going, just move aside, move aside. You know, I don't no, but when you're talking about you're not making that much money anyway, and it's kind of hourly, don't you think? Younger people, like millennials, they already have that mindset, like coming out of the pandemic. There are probably a lot of them already side hustling anyway, so they were probably more charged up because they maybe had side hustles there, that this really was an injustice moment, too.

Michael Jamin [00:18:02]:

It's possible, yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:18:04]:

I'm going to die on that hill. I'm sorry. That's my theory. I'm going to die.

Michael Jamin [00:18:06]:

Sure, you might be right. I don't know.

Molly McPherson [00:18:09]:

Yeah, that could be. But let's specifically talk about the tactics, because you and I spoke about this before, that the studios used a playbook, and the playbook that they used was one that they went back into the offices and pulled off a know, and they dusted it off and then they opened it up. Now, for me, as an outsider, I could see this playbook on full display when I watched. As I had mentioned, Bob, Iger I was traveling and I was at the Minneapolis airport trying to get to Boston, and I was getting tagged like crazy on the Bob Iger interview on CNBC when he was in Sun Valley, Idaho, at the know summer camp, sitting with his sweater the sun setting down and talking about the strike. And so the optics alone were so bad. But that told me he's no fool. I mean, he's Disney. He knows how to craft a story and how to paint a picture.

Molly McPherson [00:19:14]:

He wanted to come across to me.

Michael Jamin [00:19:16]:

You think so?

Molly McPherson [00:19:18]:

Oh, without a doubt. Like, he was so confident.

Michael Jamin [00:19:21]:

You don't think he had handlers that day?

Molly McPherson [00:19:24]:

Oh, no, I think he absolutely had handlers. But if he had, like, a good PR handler, they'd say, Excuse me, Mr. Iger I think what we should do is we should put a tie on. Maybe we could put you in a different conference room, maybe, or even undo your tie and show how much work that you're doing. Or maybe we could drive down the road and we could go into Washington and not be at Sun Valley. Those are all the things that I'm thinking about. But how he sat there in that chair dressed, how he was dressed, and he just had this cool, cavalier attitude, like, yeah, come at me, come at me, come at me with your best.

Michael Jamin [00:20:00]:

Well, that's the thing. I don't hop knob with these guys. So I would have thought to me, it was such a dumb it was such a bad idea, I would have.

Molly McPherson [00:20:11]:

Bob, Iger's not listening.

Michael Jamin [00:20:12]:

He's not listening to your podcast. To me, it was such a bad idea that I would have assumed that he didn't run it by anybody. But you think he probably did run it by and no, no, this is what we're doing.

Molly McPherson [00:20:20]:

No, I think it's the opposite. I think they know because know they set up know they're going to get publicity. They're doing all the interviews. They're doing coverage from Sun Valley. I think he was so because I deal with this like, people like this all the time. They think they're smarter than the reporter, than the interview, and he's so accustomed to running things. And also he has this renewed confidence because he came back into Disney, they got rid of the other one who he moved up the ranks. So I think he was feeling very good and not only based on how he looked and that he had the absolute kahonas to sit down and say what he did.

Molly McPherson [00:21:00]:

But when he's referring to writers as because I don't know if SAG was involved in it yet, not yet. Just WGA disruptive was I saw a narrative that they've been using this through line there, that you all were the enemy, like, this disruptive, like the dark force, which I thought was incredible and took such I mean, the arrogance of that. So when you saw that video, what did you think that interview.

Michael Jamin [00:21:31]:

These are people who don't know how to like, you're saying they didn't know how to tell the stories. That's not the story you tell. That's where you put the villain of your story. I'm sitting on a bag of money with this view that I have in this resort. That's where you set the villain you don't put the hero there. The hero starts off in the gutter. The heroes is down and out. The hero is not the rich guy.

Michael Jamin [00:21:56]:

And the fact that he doesn't know this and is in the business where they tell stories, that's why you need writers, because a writer would have said, no, sir, I have some notes.

Molly McPherson [00:22:05]:

Isn't that funny? That's the irony, right? He needed a writer in. So his quote, like one of his quotes. So this is Bob iger so this is when he was on Squawk Box. And it's the Sun Valley Conference in Idaho. So it's just all the billionaires talking about being billionaires. Billionaire quote. It's very disturbing to me. We've talked about disruptive forces on this business and all the challenges we're facing.

Molly McPherson [00:22:29]:

The recovery from COVID which is ongoing, it's not completely back. This is the worst time in the world to add to that disruption. I understand any labor organization's desire to work on behalf of its members to get the most compensation and be compensated fairly based on the value that they delivered. So not only is he painting writers as disrupted evil people, but also that you're greedy.

Michael Jamin [00:22:56]:

Yeah, I also thought it yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:22:58]:

That there's barely middle class I also.

Michael Jamin [00:23:00]:

Thought it was a bad idea that to understand what he said, you have to play it backwards on a record. I thought that was not a good idea.

Molly McPherson [00:23:06]:

I'm getting too serious for you in my PR. Is that it? But you know what, though?

Michael Jamin [00:23:10]:

Yeah. When is there a good time to negotiate a contract? Because when things are great, there's never a good time. So what are you talking about? And that's a you problem, not a me problem. You know what I'm saying? I got to pay the bills, so this is how I'm going to pay. By going on strike?

Molly McPherson [00:23:27]:

Yeah, but I think when they played the record back, it said, the studio's message is dead.

Michael Jamin [00:23:36]:

Yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:23:37]:

Get it?

Michael Jamin [00:23:38]:

Yeah. Right. But it was like, what are you guys there was something else that they did to put out was, like, also tone deaf.

Molly McPherson [00:23:48]:

Well, I think it was in wasn't it in Deadline that they had someone so an unnamed source. So really what it came down to was painting you all as greedy, as disruptive, and if anyone's upset that you can't see your favorite movie or favorite TV show, you have to blame them.

Michael Jamin [00:24:05]:

It's like we're disrupting his holiday on the mountain, at the mountain resort. This is so disruptive. Do you know I have Polo in ten minutes?

Molly McPherson [00:24:13]:

Exactly. Okay, so I think that's one reason why the WGA was formidable in this argument. What else in the playbook changed in this strike?

Michael Jamin [00:24:26]:

I think it was social media, because we could put a face to the cause. As you pointed out, the studios could not put a face to their cause. Who's the face of 20th Century Fox or Disney? Well, Bob, the CEO can step out, but that's not going to work. The richest man, one of the richest men in America. That won't work. You got to find somebody else who'd be your spokesperson. So who's it going to be? And with the writers, you could go on social media, and everyone can just tell our story, and that's what writer that's the only thing we know how to do is tell stories.

Molly McPherson [00:24:59]:

And so how many other writers that you know were on social media talking about the strike?

Michael Jamin [00:25:08]:

I don't know what they're talking about, the strike. It's so weird. Four or five, and I only know them through social media. I don't know them in person. Maybe there's maybe there's a little more, but I'm not no, there's a little more. There's probably a dozen or so. I don't know them that well, but they talk. And some have bigger reaches than others.

Michael Jamin [00:25:29]:

But I'm sure there's more that I'm not seeing.

Molly McPherson [00:25:32]:

Algorithm. Michael algorithm. It's not because you don't care. It's the algorithm. Right, but you were certainly vocal I will say this. I didn't see any other writers being interviewed. Were there other writers being interviewed? Yeah.

Michael Jamin [00:25:44]:

Then Adam Conover is very high profile. Justine Bateman.

Molly McPherson [00:25:48]:

High profile. Yeah. Okay. Justine Bateman as she yeah, she was out there. So she's a member of WGA?

Michael Jamin [00:25:55]:

Yeah. And DGA, she's higher profile than.

Molly McPherson [00:26:01]:

She what is she? Right.

Michael Jamin [00:26:02]:

Well, you remember her from Family Ties, right?

Molly McPherson [00:26:06]:

Of course.

Michael Jamin [00:26:06]:

Mallory. Mallory, of course.

Molly McPherson [00:26:09]:

Older sister of Jason Bateman.

Michael Jamin [00:26:11]:

Things didn't work out with her. And Nick.

Molly McPherson [00:26:13]:

Remember Nick Valentine?

Michael Jamin [00:26:16]:

Yes. Wasn't it? Yes.

Molly McPherson [00:26:18]:

How impressed are so yeah. So those were definitely people, though. But I think your message was daily. I mean, you talked about it, and you just kind of wove it into your natural narrative while you kept sharing tips on how people can become writers in Hollywood. You certainly dotted it with what was happening with the strike. Okay, so now you talk about social media. What else did social media do as a strike tactic?

Michael Jamin [00:26:48]:

Two things. One, it united the writers with each other. So, hey, we're all telling stories, and they know how I feel, and I know how they feel, but also, it helped the public get a sense of what it was. I forget that the public doesn't really know what we do, what I do. It seems like this is just an ordinary day, and the people I hang out with, other writers, we all do this. Nothing special. What we do doesn't seem special. We're just people doing it.

Michael Jamin [00:27:17]:

But I imagine from the outside, you're pulling the curtain back and like, oh, that's what it is. So I think the public was interested in that kind of stuff.

Molly McPherson [00:27:26]:

Yeah. Definitely united the writers. But what would you say about the public following you? What else did it do with them? Did it trigger something in them to want to fight on your behalf or raise the. Profile of you.

Michael Jamin [00:27:39]:

Yeah, well, they shared the stories. They asked what they could do. And I was like, well, here's a link. If you want to donate, there's a strike fund which helps out people who are in need, even in other industries. They did that. But just sharing, honestly, just sharing, it helped because you're just raising awareness. And I guess that put pressure on the studios. They knew you can talk better about this, I'm sure, why it's important to win the PR war.

Molly McPherson [00:28:08]:

And why do you think they lost it?

Michael Jamin [00:28:11]:

I don't know. I guess it was because we were able to paint ourselves as the underdogs and they were the rich CEOs, which is what they are.

Molly McPherson [00:28:21]:

Yeah. Trying to paint you all as the villain. As an aside, do you remember when I did that post about the strike when they hired the firm in Washington DC.

Michael Jamin [00:28:32]:

Okay.

Molly McPherson [00:28:32]:

And the CEO, her name was Molly.

Michael Jamin [00:28:34]:

And I said, yeah, can't really dunk.

Molly McPherson [00:28:35]:

Another Molly, that post. So when I posted it, like after 24 hours, it only had like 1200 views. Which I don't mean this to come off as a flex by any means, but I could get 1200 views in 45 seconds, right? And part of me thought, I wonder, is this like somehow like some big conspiracy? Like if they follow a hashtag and then they bury any strike content?

Michael Jamin [00:29:06]:

Oh, it's interesting because I made that post about it as well. My feeling in that post was there was announcement in the trades that the studios hired a big expensive PR firm. And I was like, Why are you telling everyone? Keep it to yourself. Studios are spinning the narrative because they're keep that part a secret. If you're going to hire somebody to basically spin and lie for you, don't tell everyone. That's what you're doing, just do it. I was like, how do you screw that up?

Molly McPherson [00:29:35]:

The again, like, I think it's the same reason why Bob Iger was sitting there in his three quarter zip know, as the sun was setting in the mountains. I think it was this flex to the writers to say, we're serious and we mean business, and now we're going to DC. And so in my post, why I was interested, because obviously I was being tagged like crazy because now they hired a PR firm. So the firm is out of Washington DC. And it's the Levison Group and it's run by Molly Levinson. So she has a background in media, she's worked in the press, she's worked in politics. So she's just a real DC gal and started this firm. And it's filled with Washington people who have a lot of experience, so extensive media experience.

Molly McPherson [00:30:24]:

But when I did a little bit of a deep dive, and I'm not one of those TikTokers that goes like way deep, and then they have these amazing I'm surface level, I'm like 45 seconds max in half of my research. But this one interested me because on their website, all the clients that they were profiling were true underdogs, and they're the underdog know it was women's soccer and it was just all these causes. And I thought, isn't that interesting that AMPTP came in and thought that this was going to be the group that was going to be able to help them.

Michael Jamin [00:30:58]:

How interesting the interest you're right. They should have gone with whoever does exxon or whatever.

Molly McPherson [00:31:04]:

Exactly. You go for the killers. Now you're saying it like you never saw my post.

Michael Jamin [00:31:07]:

You're like, oh, no, I didn't see that one. I'm telling you, I watch all your posts. I creep on all your posts.

Molly McPherson [00:31:15]:

No, but you creep. No, but this is the one that was buried. But this is also the one that you said your pal, the one who I named my daughter after, she forwarded it to you.

Michael Jamin [00:31:25]:

Right. And you know what else, though? I was going to mention, there was another post yesterday or two days ago. It was like the studios put out, like, a press release that the studios gave the writers their best and final offer. And then that went viral because every writer started pitching on how dumb that sounds. And that went viral on TikTok or whatever, twitter, whatever it's called. And then also the strike signs, which I'm pointing to. I have my strike sign there. That helped because we're on the sign carrying strike signs, and it was just writers writing jokes and, like, dumb stuff.

Molly McPherson [00:32:03]:

Okay, that is such a simple concept, but I thought it was brilliant because it allowed, like an optic of everything is the same every single day. It's just like people walking in front of the sign, and the only variation was, it's super hot Today or It's not, or NBC cut all the trees so there wouldn't be shade. But the fact that you guys could write whatever you wanted on there made it fresh content.

Michael Jamin [00:32:28]:

Yeah, and it put a lot of pressure because I remember the very first day I showed up, literally someone shoved a pen in my hand. Go ahead. And then, like, five writers were looking at me and I'm like, oh, crap.

Molly McPherson [00:32:39]:

What was your first I know you did a post on I can't remember what it was, but what was it?

Michael Jamin [00:32:43]:

I have it over here. Hold on.

Molly McPherson [00:32:45]:

Okay, sure.

Michael Jamin [00:32:45]:

Don't go.

Molly McPherson [00:32:46]:

Show us. It's a video.

Michael Jamin [00:32:52]:

Okay. I don't know if you could see it. I have my sign and.

Molly McPherson [00:33:00]:

Are you introducing that language into my your G rated podcast?

Michael Jamin [00:33:05]:

Kids, go to sleep.

Molly McPherson [00:33:06]:

No, you moved it. All I saw was the effort. What does it say? It says I'm on strike. You write the Effing sign at Michael Jammon. Oh, nice. Okay, that's good. Did people like that?

Michael Jamin [00:33:16]:

Oh, yeah. They all started laughing. I was going, Good, because that was to. When you're a bunch of writers, you come up with something funny that is pressure.

Molly McPherson [00:33:24]:

What were one of the funnier captions that you saw on those signs?

Michael Jamin [00:33:29]:

Just variation. I don't know. A lot of punny stuff, variations of goofy jokes. But what happens is, on day one, you carry your own sign, but after that, for the most part, you're just picking up random signs. And so you might carry a sign with something stupid. There was every morning you show up to the picket line, you're like, oh, God, I got to find a good sign. That's terrible. That's bad, that's bad.

Michael Jamin [00:33:49]:

All right, this will do.

Molly McPherson [00:33:50]:

Oh, really? No kidding. So it's like a cruel game of dodgeball, but it's with a picket. So you said punny. What's the definition of punny?

Michael Jamin [00:33:57]:

Is that a writer's pun is the lowest it's the lowest form of humor. So you don't want to pitch a pun?

Molly McPherson [00:34:05]:

Oh, you don't want to pitch a pun. Oh, I get it.

Michael Jamin [00:34:07]:

Okay, that's not pun.

Molly McPherson [00:34:11]:

Oh, is that the term?

Michael Jamin [00:34:12]:

Is that what people say punny is like? Yeah, you don't want to do that. It's okay to get from you what.

Molly McPherson [00:34:18]:

You don't want to do. A clam.

Michael Jamin [00:34:20]:

A clam, right. It's okay. Like, on a picket sign, it's okay because it's kind of grabby, but in a script, you don't really want to do it.

Molly McPherson [00:34:27]:

And a clam, again, is what? Like it's a cliche.

Michael Jamin [00:34:30]:

A clam is a joke we've heard before. Said no one ever. That's a clam. I was today years old when I learned that. Right?

Molly McPherson [00:34:38]:

Yes. Okay. You will never ever find me writing that term.

Michael Jamin [00:34:41]:

I've never right. You don't put it in writing.

Molly McPherson [00:34:44]:

Okay, so we've gone through tactics. We've gone through social media. So what's the third thing that you think really changed it up, that made a difference in this strike?

Michael Jamin [00:34:51]:

The fact that the actors happened to go on the strike the same time we did, because now they're picketing with us and they're high profile. They're getting more coverage because everyone wants to see the actors.

Molly McPherson [00:35:03]:

No one wants to see a bunch of writers with their bunny sweating. So tell me about the actors then. Like, who were some of the actors that you saw out there?

Michael Jamin [00:35:14]:

But the first day, I was walking at Warner Brothers, and this actor named Chris Goreham, who I worked with out of practice, and he works quite a bit, and so, hey, I didn't see him in 1015 years. So we were picketing together, and then we were walking around the whole day, and I kept on getting stopped because people were like, hey, TikTok. Michael Chamber Writer and then I say, hey, this is Chris Goreham over here. Hey.

Molly McPherson [00:35:38]:

Michael Chamber, writer.

Michael Jamin [00:35:40]:

Sorry, Chris.

Molly McPherson [00:35:41]:

Sorry. Not your time. So what was it with the actors? Could you tell? Did all the actors was it a thing? Was it bad not to strike? What were the unwritten rules for actors when it came to the strike?

Michael Jamin [00:35:56]:

Oh, I mean, I'm not sure I understand that. Picketing nothing. I don't know if there are unwritten rules, they would just walk.

Molly McPherson [00:36:03]:

But were there a lot of them doing it? At what level? Like ABCD? Were there a level?

Michael Jamin [00:36:09]:

Picketers yeah, I missed the day. I had a call that I couldn't get out of. I was going to go to the 20th Century Fox because Wendy Malik and Laura Sandra Como, who are both lovely.

Molly McPherson [00:36:22]:

I worked with, shoot me.

Michael Jamin [00:36:24]:

Yeah. So they rented either a coffee truck or a hot dog truck where they're giving up free food to everyone. And I missed it because I couldn't get down there. There was.

Molly McPherson [00:36:34]:

Just shoot me. Just okay, so here's a question. What is she doing for work? Laura, who sang to you?

Michael Jamin [00:36:40]:

Laura was recently on she was recently on Barry, but only one or two episodes.

Molly McPherson [00:36:46]:

Oh, was she?

Michael Jamin [00:36:47]:

Yeah, she was great.

Molly McPherson [00:36:48]:

She was on Pretty Woman.

Michael Jamin [00:36:49]:

Yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:36:50]:

Do you remember what her name was in Pretty Woman?

Michael Jamin [00:36:52]:

Kit, wasn't it?

Molly McPherson [00:36:54]:

I was going to say it's Kat, but I think you're right.

Michael Jamin [00:36:56]:

It was Kit.

Molly McPherson [00:36:57]:

Kit.

Michael Jamin [00:36:57]:

Yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:36:58]:

Very good.

Michael Jamin [00:36:58]:

Oh, my gosh, she's so sweet. She's the best.

Molly McPherson [00:37:01]:

She seems like it is. And you know, a lot of people that you'll just drop in a conversation that they're just pals, but then they're actors. And then I always do just this record scratch in my brain.

Michael Jamin [00:37:13]:

Like, what?

Molly McPherson [00:37:13]:

That's a friend of Michael's?

Michael Jamin [00:37:18]:

Yeah, I guess so. I don't hang out that much.

Molly McPherson [00:37:23]:

Well, no, but you know a lot.

Michael Jamin [00:37:24]:

Of people just because yeah, I know.

Molly McPherson [00:37:25]:

I mean, obviously your work. Obviously your work. Okay, but what else? Now, back in 2008, the actors weren't on strike, were they?

Michael Jamin [00:37:34]:

No, they were not on strike. The actors have not been on strike with the writers since 1960.

Molly McPherson [00:37:40]:

Really? How long was that strike?

Michael Jamin [00:37:43]:

I don't know. It might have been a little longer than this one. I don't know. I wasn't around.

Molly McPherson [00:37:47]:

Okay, well, almost. So when the actors jump on board, do you think all the actors were on board with that?

Michael Jamin [00:37:59]:

I kind of think so. The really rich ones, they can strike. George Clooney is going to be okay, so it's okay. He's happy to go on strike to help out the working actors, I feel. And it was the working actors who need it, who are really struggling.

Molly McPherson [00:38:15]:

Yeah, and we didn't hear from a lot of actors who were struggling. So that really wasn't a storyline in the strike. Except for Billy Porter was the one person who, you know, said that he was on the brink of losing his kinky beats Kinky Boots, Billy Porter. But when I heard that, I thought, oh, wow, you know, that does hit home.

Michael Jamin [00:38:39]:

Brian Cranston was very was yeah, he was good.

Molly McPherson [00:38:44]:

So was there anything else, do you think, having the actors come in? Did that help raise visibility for the public, you think, to learn more about.

Michael Jamin [00:38:54]:

Also, it says that okay, so it's not just the writers who are being unreasonable. It's the actors who are being now it's other people are being unreasonable. So maybe we're not being unreasonable after yeah.

Molly McPherson [00:39:05]:

So, okay, so not to switch over. I know you have your guild, but can you look at the perspective of just Fran Drescher? Because so many people are familiar with her, and she received a lot of coverage for the striking negotiation. They're still in the negotiation phase. Do you know anything about SAGAFTRA? Like, right where they are in the don't.

Michael Jamin [00:39:26]:

I don't but I'll say the fact that we have gotten this deal will make their deal easier to get because that's why the assistant guilds are backing we're backing the Writers Guild because they knew that the better the deal that we get, the more likely it is that they'll get a good deal. Because when they go to negotiate, the studios can't say, well, that's not on the table. When it was on the table for the you know, they're asking for comparable things. There's some overlap, and so it'll make it easier for SAG to get a good prediction. I don't think SAG is going to be on strike for another three months. I think we're talking weeks.

Molly McPherson [00:40:02]:

Oh, you're talking weeks. Okay. Is there anything that you could say about Fran Drescher? I mean, I know that she represents Saga, but what did you notice in terms of her leadership that may have made a difference?

Michael Jamin [00:40:14]:

Well, I'll tell you this. So I directed Fran Drescher when I was running a show.

Molly McPherson [00:40:18]:

Why did I know that there'd be.

Michael Jamin [00:40:19]:

A friend Glenn Martin story with I directed everybody in this show.

Molly McPherson [00:40:22]:

Okay.

Michael Jamin [00:40:23]:

And so she comes on to play this part, and she was great. She was lovely, nice seeing, and so but she wasn't quite getting it. And I was trying to direct her, giving her notes, and then finally I said I kind of walked up, and I didn't want to say it, but I had to say it. I go, can you kind of do it like the nanny? And she goes, oh, sure. She went right? No problem. No problem at all. Interesting. She was game.

Michael Jamin [00:40:50]:

You don't know how someone's going to react. She was, oh, fine. She had no ego. She was like, sure, I get it. That's the joke. Sure. And so I found her to be lovely. So that, to me, says a lot about a person, that one little interaction.

Michael Jamin [00:41:03]:

So when she was in charge of the she's the president of the Screen Actors Guild. People like her. I think the people around her like her and want her to do well. Because she's a likable person.

Molly McPherson [00:41:16]:

Because she took your notes?

Michael Jamin [00:41:19]:

Well, no, because she's the kind of person yeah, she's the kind of person sometimes actors there are actors who freak out, and that was not her.

Molly McPherson [00:41:26]:

But did you notice I don't know if you watched any of the press conferences that she had or just any of her interviews.

Michael Jamin [00:41:32]:

Oh, she's feisty.

Molly McPherson [00:41:34]:

Okay. I was going to ask you, what persona was she wearing? I mean, you know her personally.

Michael Jamin [00:41:38]:

I wouldn't know her met her.

Molly McPherson [00:41:41]:

Well, you know her more than the average person. But what did feisty Fran Drescher do? What signal did that send?

Michael Jamin [00:41:49]:

Do you think even to know when you're yelling at these studio heads, oh, give it to them, because none of us have the courage to do know.

Molly McPherson [00:41:58]:

Everybody liked it.

Michael Jamin [00:41:59]:

Yeah. So I was let it good for, you know, because she has the courage to stand up to them. Brian Cranston was the same way.

Molly McPherson [00:42:07]:

Do you think that other actors in SAG or after Sister Guilds, do you think they thought that she did a good job? Like, looking at her thinking, oh, she's making a difference here?

Michael Jamin [00:42:19]:

I don't know. I don't talk to the guild leadership, the Writers Guild, but she was being a squeaky. You want here's the thing. In Hollywood, you want your agent and your manager. You want them to be pains in the asses. You want your guild to be a pain in the ass because that means they're advocating for you. Sure. I don't want you to like anybody who represents me.

Michael Jamin [00:42:44]:

Okay, bulldog.

Molly McPherson [00:42:48]:

Yeah. So that's our bonus mobilization tip or our bonus tip about the new playbook is be a pain in the ass. Is that what you're saying?

Michael Jamin [00:42:53]:

Well, have someone be a pain in.

Molly McPherson [00:42:55]:

The ass for you on your behalf. Well, I presented a crisis plan today, and part of the issue was there's a union element that was in this crisis. And what I was mentioning is now is the day of a time where a lot of these unions have a lot more just kind of juice and energy behind them. Like last Friday, I had a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, send me a live link, and they're in a position where they can't say anything publicly, but they sent it to me because they knew that this would be something I'd be interested in. And it was the union, the auto workers union, YouTube live. And it was a call to arms. He's at the podium, and he's just calling out all the towns. He's like, I want you, Cleveland.

Molly McPherson [00:43:51]:

I want you, St. Paul. I want you, Boston. He's going through all the cities. Today's the day we're striking. I thought, wow, look at this is the new playbook. So you're talking about digital. Talking about you guys.

Molly McPherson [00:44:05]:

I'd say the WGA you wrote the.

Michael Jamin [00:44:09]:

Playbook, the new playbook. That's nice of you to say that. Yeah. I don't think the thing is, everyone knows the middle class is being squeezed. Everyone knows that there's a huge wealth gap. Huge. And I don't think people even realize how big the wealth gap is between the very rich and everyone else. The rich are no longer rich.

Michael Jamin [00:44:31]:

They're, like, filthy so I think there's an element of that going on now. It's like, hey, you got to start sharing some of this money.

Molly McPherson [00:44:43]:

Okay, so, Michael, on every episode of the indestructible PR podcast, which I'm sure you listen to every week, and you.

Michael Jamin [00:44:47]:

Already know this, I have it on a loop. I go to bed to it. Nothing makes me fall asleep faster than.

Molly McPherson [00:44:53]:

Me going, I always like to add one little takeaway. And it's just like a little tidbit about how people can either build an indestructible reputation or kind of like tips from the new playbook. So over the past three months, or even your new life on TikTok, what would you share with someone in terms of just kind of like guidelines, playbook, speak of, I don't know, just communicating or advocating for something that you want.

Michael Jamin [00:45:27]:

Any type of tip that you could share authenticity. So don't pretend to be something you're not. Just speak your truth. And you don't have to speak for the world. You have to speak for your guild. You don't have to speak for your union. You're just speaking for yourself. And when you just tell the truth, you can't get called out for that because it's your truth.

Molly McPherson [00:45:47]:

I love that. That's very Molly esque, isn't it?

Michael Jamin [00:45:50]:

I think so.

Molly McPherson [00:45:52]:

Yeah, I think so, too. Or as you would do on your TikToks whenever you talk about a woman. Did you see my comment today?

Michael Jamin [00:45:58]:

Yeah, but I did see that. But to a woman, you go, I did this, I did this, I did that. Right?

Molly McPherson [00:46:03]:

I know what's this?

Michael Jamin [00:46:04]:

What am I supposed to do? What should I do?

Molly McPherson [00:46:07]:

Well, I mean, it's better than other things, I suppose, but every woman you ever do is no, not every but.

Michael Jamin [00:46:15]:

I didn't do this. It was this. Oh, my thank you.

Molly McPherson [00:46:20]:

It wasn't.

Michael Jamin [00:46:21]:

Yeah, it was. No, you got to watch it again, because I watched it again to make sure it was this. I said to her, it was the woman at the pharmacist who was going to give me a shot. And I said to her, you're my favorite pharmacist. And she goes, oh, thank you. It was that. Oh, thank you. And then I said, take it easy.

Michael Jamin [00:46:38]:

I don't know a lot of pharmacists.

Molly McPherson [00:46:42]:

Well, at michael Jammonwriter, thank you so.

Michael Jamin [00:46:44]:

Much for molly, thank you for having.

Molly McPherson [00:46:46]:

Well, I would say thank you for speaking with me, but we speak all the time. But thank you for speaking with me formally on the podcast. This was a perfect time.

Michael Jamin [00:46:54]:

Yes. And we have other adventures together coming up.

Molly McPherson [00:46:56]:

We do. This is the first of many to come down the road. So Michael Jam, and congratulations on the success of the end of the strike, the conclusion of the strike.

Michael Jamin [00:47:06]:

I'll give you a big hug, Molly. Thank you.

Molly McPherson [00:47:08]:

All right.

Michael Jamin [00:47:10]:

Okay. How do we stay let me unplug this.

Molly McPherson [00:47:13]:

Stay there for 1 second.