251: A Realistic Picture of Disability Rights and Inclusion in Media and Marketing with Kelsey Lindell

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Selena Gomez, selma Blair, michael J Fox, nick Jonas, ari Pauta our favorite wizard they all have something in common, but maybe you do too.

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Welcome to the Indestructible PR podcast, where we use current events and tested media and PR strategies to help prevent or manage a crisis and build an indestructible reputation.

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It's been over 30 years since the American with Disabilities Act was implemented, yet there are still barriers to inclusivity that persist, particularly for the celebrities and the noncelebs, the hoi poloi, just like you and me, who bear the weight of public scrutiny as it relates to their disabilities.

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Today, let's explore that unsettling issue of when we're not being inclusive to a marginalized group not that many people think about With my guest, kelsey Lindell, who is a physically disabled woman who is on a mission to educate 1 million people about disability rights and ableism this year.

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Take a listen, kelsey.

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I'm so happy to speak with you today on a very important topic that also happens to be your passion.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm so excited to chat with you again.

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Kelsey, this is our second conversation.

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You spoke with my membership a couple months ago and it was an outstanding talk about a segment in the communication marketing branding field that not only do so many people sadly overlook, but also they overlook it, and there's such opportunity that is missed there.

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So we're definitely going to get into that, but before we do, could you just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

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Sure, yeah, I'm a disabled woman and I worked in disability advocacy internationally with advocacy groups for the first five years of my career and for the last 10 years I've been in the marketing space.

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I've worked for big companies, I've worked for production studio, where I'm at right now, and time and time again I would see well-intentioned leaders and marketers trying to include people with disabilities or trying to just be inclusive but overlooking disability, and they had no idea that some of the things that they were doing are saying were problematic.

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So I started Misfit Media.

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Misfit Media is a disabled led and run creative agency.

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So all of our people have disabilities, have lived experience with disability, have expressed peace in disability, but also have decades of creative experience.

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So we focus on three different areas in our business education, consulting and creative.

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So a lot of our workshop, a lot of our work, is doing workshops, whether that's the spoke workshops, where we come into your place of work and do them, or if it's on demand and you stream them.

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We're really passionate about educating marketers so that they don't need us to do every single thing for them.

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They don't need us to hold their hand every step of the way.

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OK, thank you.

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So why don't we start at the beginning here and just define what is technically a disability?

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Yeah well, the ADA defines disability as some sort of a diagnosis or life experience that limits one or more major life activities.

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So there's a lot of people that technically are disabled, that don't even realize that they're disabled.

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So that's the ADA's definition.

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And then we expand that within Misfit to include neurodivergent diagnosis, which is a newer term that talks, refers to basically just a variation of how someone's brain works.

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So autism is a part of neurodiversity, so is ADHD, so is dyslexia, so is Tourette.

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So those are also underneath the disability umbrella, but they weren't traditionally, because when the ADA defined disability those terms didn't exist yet.

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OK, so ADA meaning Americans, with.

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Disabilities Act.

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Most people associate disability with mobility and the lack of mobility, but do these other, the spectrum, asd, all these other disorders?

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They all fall under ADA.

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And also do they fall under your scope when people think about branding and marketing with disabilities?

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Yeah, yeah.

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One thing we talk about a lot is that not all disabilities are visible.

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Most disabilities are not, so I was born missing half of my left arm.

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That was the first disability I ever had.

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I have ADHD.

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I also have stage four endometriosis, which most people don't realize that's a disability, but for me it is.

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I can't walk half the time anymore, so that's definitely disability.

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It's getting in the way of multiple major life activities.

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And then I also have a traumatic brain injury.

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I was going for a walk a few years ago and a car came and hit me, and so I have a permanent traumatic brain injury.

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And so one thing we also talk about a lot is that disability is the only marginalized community that anyone can join at any time.

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All that, that is putting it all into perspective, isn't it?

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Yeah, yes, totally so.

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When?

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What are some of the common misconceptions that that brands might make when it comes to trying to include Disabled people in their in their content?

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Well, the first is that they don't.

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We know that disability makes up 25% of the population and 40% of American families have at least one person with a disability in them.

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Yet at most, people with disabilities are only seen in media 3.5% of the time, and within advertising it's even lower, it's 1%.

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And the Center for storytellers and scholars, which is this organization that does great work that really like looks at narrative, identifies that 80% of this very small amount of representation is problematic.

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So the first thing is that they they don't do it.

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They oftentimes this could be too implicit bias they think that disability is rare or it's not that common because they don't see it around them.

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Very often, like we talked about, not all disabilities are visible, so they think it doesn't really matter that much, it's fine.

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The other reason that they often overlook this is they think that disabled people don't have that big of a buying power, and that's simply not true, you know, because there are things like social security insurance, which is horrendous.

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The amount, the max you can get off social and social Social security insurance, which is basically payment from the government to survive if you absolutely cannot work, is $700 a month.

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Of course, that is a very, very low income the same.

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Oftentimes those people do have other caretakers or providers that are helping support them, though they will purchase some things like it.

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Maybe they're not gonna purchase a luxurious vacation, but they'll purchase toilet paper and they'll purchase their basic needs at Target.

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You know like there are things that disabled people still buy.

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And the other thing that we talked about is 40% of Families have at least one person with a disability in them, right?

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So my husband Didn't really think twice about disability inclusion until he met me, because he didn't know anybody that was close to him and his family that had one.

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Now that, now that we're married and he sees how much disability affects my life and how certain products are just inaccessible for me, he will always purchase from the company that does value disability inclusion that we've seen.

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And one thing that we see a lot is that we know that 90% of consumers will switch to a brand that prioritizes disability inclusion if it's like basically the same product.

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So there's two.

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Let's use the toilet paper example again.

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There's two different types of toilet paper and one has like an ad that they see that has Disabled people in it, and somebody who's a parent to some of the disability in it sees it, there's a 90% chance they're gonna switch over if they don't have loyalty to the other brand.

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For some, reason I'm surprised that it's even 90% and because people don't notice it.

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And in my household, I mean, I have celiac disease, which, when a mother has celiac disease, that's not.

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That's not a disease, that's not a disability.

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We, we keep going, we keep eating gluten every single day.

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But my recently, my son, was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.

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You know, he's, you know, been living with it for three years.

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He's 18 years old now and, as his mother, like his full-time caregiver in this, we're kind of in it together.

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Boy, do I notice every time I see someone with an insulin pump, whether it's in the media, whether it's in Entertainment, if I notice it and it sticks with me and the brand sticks with me.

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Even, and as a great example, the Jonas brothers would never be a band that I would normally be super excited about, but when you find out that Nick Jonas has type 1 diabetes and does a lot of work with it, it does make a different, you know, from totally brands.

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Yeah, now what are some of the harmful stereotypes surrounding Disabilities?

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sure, okay, associated with.

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There's a lot.

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So the one I know that we were both kind of like excited to talk about is one called inspiration porn.

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So inspiration porn is a term that was coined by the late disability activist Stella young and Stella young's.

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She has a whole Ted talk on it.

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It's like 10 minutes.

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It's super quirky and super fine.

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If you have 10 minutes, you want to learn about it.

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Listen to it.

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She's incredible.

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But basically she goes on to say like when she was she's, she was a wheelchair user and she would go about her day and people come up to her and be like oh my gosh, you're so inspiring, you inspire me so much.

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And her whole thing was like, if I'm not, I don't exist to inspire you, I don't exist to inspire you.

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And nine times out of ten, literally when you see a disabled person featured in content, it is to inspire the non-disabled viewer, right?

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So, just like I mean, respectfully, pornography.

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That's why she used to term porn.

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Porn is used to, like, basically, make the other person feel good, and it doesn't matter really what's going on with the person on the screen, right, okay, they're just.

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They're just there to objectify and it's there to make you feel good.

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Yeah, inspiration porn is the idea that, like disabled people are used for I mean not sexually, hopefully, but like we're not.

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We don't want to be used to just make you feel good that we have our own experiences, and that's actually really problematic.

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Yeah, like the other in a psychological response.

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Yeah, a physical response like a dopamine hit.

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Yeah, totally, yes, absolutely.

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And we also see that a lot of people like when we think of.

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Let's think of sports brands, right.

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I used to be a fitness instructor before I know me, trio's took over my life.

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You'd see them using disabled people in their ads, but it was always Paralympians, right, it was a limb, like Olympic level athletes, right.

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Whereas now we're seeing Really cool brands like Nike does a lot of really cool stuff with postpartum bodies and fat bodies and that's amazing and they're seeing really positive results from it, but they don't see them using everyday disabled people in their content.

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You still see them just using Paralympics and so it's kind of like for non-disabled people.

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Think about how Unrealistic beauty standards are right.

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That's like why there's big movement towards body positivity and exploring what it looks like to have people of all different types of genders in all different types of body sizes Featured in ads.

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When we look at disabled representation, when we only see that Inspiration porn trope, what it's saying to society is like, basically, if this disabled person can do it, so can you, right and like One.

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That's not true.

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How harmful is like we know it's harmful for to see just size zero blonde.

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You know 510 women in ads.

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We know that that's harmful on society.

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Same thing goes for disabled people.

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If the only to say disability representation you're showing is a Paralympian, that's great that that person could pull themselves up by the bootstraps, but most people can't, so it's actually really harmful, because then it puts this Idea in people's minds that like, oh, all this, that disabled person can do it.

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This person can too, when there's actually systemic barriers that prevent us from doing a lot of what other people take for granted.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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Now you're talking about, you know, nike incorporating some of this Branding inclusion in there and branding and marketing.

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I certainly haven't seen it.

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But are there?

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Are there some good examples of disability inclusion that are more widespread that anybody would could recall?

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Yeah, so I don't know if anybody could recall this, but I promise you who can.

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It's the disability community.

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So degree deodorant they did a fan Tastic like no notes, amazing PR push, and what they did was they.

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I always say you should, if you want to really get good PR credit with the disability community, do something for us.

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So what they did was they Change their packaging so that they would be easy to open for people who have mobility struggles like me, and also put Braille on some of their products.

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Okay, cool, that's a good place to start.

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Yeah, on top of that, but that also helps us, but it also mostly helps them.

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Like they're going to get more money because of it, right, yeah, but what they did that I felt really changed the game was they created a whole like social justice kind of initiative where they focused on educating gyms and gym owners and trainers about how little representation of disabled trainers there was and how little access for access to wellness and fitness activities disabled people have, and they created guidelines and like a whole campaign surrounding making gyms and fitness facilities accessible.

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They also created a landing page where fitness instructors or personal trainers who have certification that are disabled could go and like submit their info so that they could get work and degree help find them some work which is really powerful and cool, so like things like that, where it's not just doing something that like helps you make money immediately, but it actually supports the community with equity issues, is no notes.

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The thing that I feel like they didn't do well on them is they didn't talk about it enough and I feel like if they had partnered with a lot of disabled micro influencers, kind of like mid tier influencers not just the disabled athletes who have big platforms, but like done a big influencer campaign to talk about it, this would have gotten in front of a lot more people.

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Okay, you're touching on something besides yourself.

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Are there a lot of disability inclusion influencers out there, tons Okay, who are they?

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What are?

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they talking about?

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I mean Crouches and Spices, one.

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So there's a whole.

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There's a whole.

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There's literally a company that, like rep.

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There's multiple companies that represent all disabled influencers.

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Yeah, one is called Whaler.

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They were just.

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They just acquired a company called Sea Talent about a year, a year and a half ago.

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Sea Talent was founded by Keely Catwells.

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They're amazing.

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They do really cool work.

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It's like what?

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What we don't?

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We don't do representation of big influencers with disabilities?

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That's not.

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We focus on narrative and creative, but when they, when our clients want to work with big disabled influencers, they're who we go to immediately every time.

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Kelsey, so you mentioned you mentioned an influencer who was recently involved in a big kerfuffle on TikTok.

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Oh is she.

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Yeah, what do you think?

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I don't know if I've seen it.

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What do you?

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I don't want to bring it up because I don't want to draw engagement, sure, but what do you think of influencers who will share post-duet stitch content from content creators, not brands, content creators who are not disability inclusive or they may accidentally say something about you know, overlook it, or something like that, and they come after them for the purpose of you know, kind of harshly advocating for something.

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But what do you think you know to remind people?

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You know, what do you think about that?

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I think it's an understandable response.

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I think if you want to grow as like, a brand influencer, it's not the smartest for your career, but I get it Like here's the deal.

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I don't know what you're talking about, but I've seen that person go after other things in the past and like the reality is that disabled people I don't know what it was, but let me just lift off some of the big issues that we're dealing with.

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It is legal in 27 states to pay disabled people less than a minimum wage.

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It is legal.

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Or we have seven times the rates of sexual assault than non-disabled people.

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We have 11 times higher the rate of suicide than non-disabled people.

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These are really big issues that are plaguing our community.

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So when someone like Cretace and Spice goes after somebody who says something really problematic, it is, I believe, literally like it's an emotional, emotional response and sometimes it's linked to trauma, because we've seen really harmful things and how, whether people want it to or not, what they say and the words they use matter and it informs implicit bias.

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Is your audience familiar with the term implicit bias?

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I can't speak on behalf of the entire audience.

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I don't know if you've had other people talk about this before.

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So implicit bias is basically how the assumptions that we make without them being said right.

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So like, if you look at a disabled person and you say, oh, that's sad, that's an implicit bias, that disability is a bad thing, right.

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And so the way different things inform our implicit bias is what we see in the media which is why I'm so passionate about it informs our implicit bias.

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What we are taught in school informs our implicit bias.

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What we hear our parents say, what we hear people in our churches or religious groups say, those all inform our implicit biases.

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So if someone is saying problematic things on social media and they don't like, we also don't know, right.

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So I have called the brand out before and it's pretty viral and the thing is, oh, tell me about that, okay, if you can.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a local organization.

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I live in Minneapolis and there's this.

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I mean it's not famous because it's not good, but there's this thing called Minneapolis Fashion Week and I've known the founders of it for years and years.

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I actually have had the old job of one of them.

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We know each other very well and they had done something for the past few years.

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That was pretty problematic, right?

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So they and I I went to them privately and I was like, are you open to changing this?

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What they were doing was they were having this fashion show called fashion able and like it was all focusing on, like, the ability and not focusing on the like.

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They're like we don't want to focus on the disability, we want to focus on the ability, which is problematic, and disabled people have asked people to stop saying that and I explained, like privately, in person, like hey, I know you don't intend to be harmful with this.

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I know your intentions are good.

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Here's what you're doing, here's what it's reinforcing in society, like that implicit bias.

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Here are some changes I would make and I would be happy to help do a training for you guys.

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I would volunteer to do it.

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We could educate all of your producers and I made some really tactical suggestions, practical things that they could do, like why is this the only one fashion event that has disabled people and none of your other ones do?

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Because that's not inclusion, that's sub-clusion, that's saying you can join but just for this one.

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Inclusion would be embedding it in all of your practices.

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So they didn't, and that's one thing.

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But then they also went on to have a freak show themed fashion show, and I think a lot of people just think of freak shows as spooky carnivals.

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But what they were was they were disabled people.

00:19:14.758 --> 00:19:18.017
Until the 1970s, there was a series of laws called the ugly laws.

00:19:18.017 --> 00:19:22.513
The ugly laws were municipal laws that forbade disabled people from being seen in public.

00:19:22.513 --> 00:19:27.571
The only chance that disabled people were seen in public were at freak shows.

00:19:27.571 --> 00:19:36.280
Freak shows were organized systems where non-disabled people could pay money to laugh at point at, gawk at and be horrified by disabled people.

00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:39.894
So this organization did not do any of like.

00:19:39.894 --> 00:19:40.696
You know the basic.

00:19:40.696 --> 00:19:42.704
Okay, how can we be more inclusive?

00:19:42.704 --> 00:19:45.038
And they didn't have any disabled people involved in their leadership.

00:19:45.038 --> 00:19:48.211
This whole thing was run by non-disabled people, okay hold on one second.

00:19:48.371 --> 00:19:49.113
Who did they have?

00:19:49.113 --> 00:19:55.900
You're saying they actually had a freak show theme and the freaks were people with disabilities.

00:19:56.221 --> 00:20:05.446
No, the freaks were non-disabled people, but they had put them in styles that accentuated their bodies in ways that emulated freak shows.

00:20:07.071 --> 00:20:08.516
Okay, you have to.

00:20:08.516 --> 00:20:10.903
You have to color in the lines here for me.

00:20:10.903 --> 00:20:11.345
Okay, what do you mean?

00:20:11.345 --> 00:20:11.846
So?

00:20:12.067 --> 00:20:16.876
there was, for instance, there was someone who was the bearded lady, right.

00:20:16.876 --> 00:20:18.689
So there was like okay, this person.

00:20:18.689 --> 00:20:23.829
They put a fake beard on them and, like people who deal with PCOS often deal with, like unwanted facial hair.

00:20:23.829 --> 00:20:28.670
Okay, that's not kind that's not good representation, and what you're doing is you're turning this into a.

00:20:28.670 --> 00:20:35.296
I don't know if I can swear an F and joke Like, yeah, okay, this is fun for you, this is a real struggle for someone else.

00:20:36.078 --> 00:20:37.724
Right, okay, okay, that's.

00:20:37.724 --> 00:20:39.190
That's interesting.

00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:41.195
Now are you saying they did not change?

00:20:41.195 --> 00:20:42.519
They did not?

00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.092
Do they still have this fashion week in Minneapolis?

00:20:46.092 --> 00:20:46.934
They still have?

00:20:47.015 --> 00:20:49.825
it and they, you know, did like a commitment.

00:20:49.825 --> 00:20:53.442
They were like you know, the black box apology oh, we're sorry, we didn't know.

00:20:53.442 --> 00:20:54.506
It's like you did know.

00:20:54.506 --> 00:21:01.587
You did know and because, because you did know, we talked about this privately I gave you every opportunity.

00:21:01.587 --> 00:21:03.393
I was like I was friends with this person.

00:21:03.393 --> 00:21:06.871
I offered to do it for free, didn't even make her pay me and they just chose not to.

00:21:06.871 --> 00:21:21.984
Then, when it escalated to the point that it became something that was going to reinforce negative implicit biases about disability, I called it out and so and I don't think I was I didn't have one of my business coaches.

00:21:21.984 --> 00:21:23.229
She calls it my target voice.

00:21:23.229 --> 00:21:30.428
I've worked with target before, right, and so, like when we work with them, if there's like negative feedback, I'm very calm and collected, like here's some things we could change.

00:21:30.428 --> 00:21:32.192
It wasn't my target voice, it was my.

00:21:32.192 --> 00:21:34.346
I'm angry and this is wrong voice.

00:21:34.346 --> 00:21:37.693
Yeah, I think it's valid when people respond like that.

00:21:37.693 --> 00:21:43.635
When we're dismissed, we're dismissed, so I think it's valid that she has some pretty harsh critique sometimes.

00:21:43.825 --> 00:21:50.765
Yeah, and we don't mind this harsh critique, since I'm from St Paul, minnesota, and whenever we can dunk on Minneapolis, we'll definitely do that.

00:21:50.765 --> 00:22:06.657
But it's you know what's interesting, when you were explaining this, how your initial reaction was to note that it's problematic simply because of the exclusion which most people wouldn't even think twice about.

00:22:07.038 --> 00:22:15.067
Now where I think it absolutely becomes problematic is you talk to her and she dismisses you, and so it goes forward with it.

00:22:15.067 --> 00:22:17.295
That's incredibly problematic.

00:22:17.295 --> 00:22:20.287
Now, thinking about brands for anyone who's listening right now.

00:22:20.287 --> 00:22:25.547
So we have big brands, but we have also small business, we have independent brands, we have influencers.

00:22:25.547 --> 00:22:28.692
What could someone do right now?

00:22:28.692 --> 00:22:29.694
So it's July.

00:22:29.694 --> 00:22:33.971
It is still, I mean, due to my bad my schedule.

00:22:33.971 --> 00:22:37.141
We're here mid month, but what month is July?

00:22:37.561 --> 00:22:38.826
It's disability pride month.

00:22:38.826 --> 00:22:39.178
It's.

00:22:39.178 --> 00:22:42.453
It's a huge month for the disability community.

00:22:42.453 --> 00:22:45.394
We always within like disability DEI circles.

00:22:45.394 --> 00:22:51.586
We jokingly because humor is a way to cope joke that it's the ugly stepchild of all the other awareness months.

00:22:51.586 --> 00:22:54.032
4% of companies will do something this month.

00:22:54.032 --> 00:22:55.596
That's 4%.

00:22:55.817 --> 00:22:58.815
Well, I'm not to be honest, it's not as well known.

00:22:58.815 --> 00:23:03.811
I mean, certainly when you hear pride, you know pride, but when you're disability, I don't think I've ever heard it outside of you.

00:23:04.213 --> 00:23:04.976
I guess I would love to.

00:23:04.976 --> 00:23:07.496
I mean, I guess my question is, though why?

00:23:07.496 --> 00:23:23.432
Because disabled people are talking about it, and so I think the reason pride has become so powerful and successful is big brands have gotten behind it and raised awareness about it, and then there's big parades, like pride started as a protest, just like disability, pride has started as a protest, like it was like no, we're here, we're proud of who we are.

00:23:23.432 --> 00:23:25.563
You can't change us, they said the same way.

00:23:25.563 --> 00:23:35.536
I really think the reason pride has gotten so much momentum is because people listen to that community a lot more and respected a lot more, whereas disability makes people feel extremely uncomfortable still.

00:23:36.005 --> 00:23:36.226
Right.

00:23:36.226 --> 00:23:37.308
So what can people do?

00:23:37.308 --> 00:23:37.770
What can?

00:23:37.770 --> 00:23:38.894
What can influencers?

00:23:38.894 --> 00:23:41.508
What small business, mid-sized business?

00:23:41.508 --> 00:23:42.089
What can they do?

00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:42.731
This month?

00:23:42.731 --> 00:23:43.734
They're really almost.

00:23:44.085 --> 00:23:44.708
Yeah, yeah.

00:23:44.708 --> 00:23:51.613
So I always say if you haven't done anything at this point, think of right now, as you're jumping off point, to get ready for disability pride 2024.

00:23:51.613 --> 00:23:53.837
Because it?

00:23:53.837 --> 00:23:57.048
I'll use an example Chick-fil-A.

00:23:57.048 --> 00:23:58.493
Okay, chick-fil-a did a commercial.

00:23:58.493 --> 00:24:05.009
It wasn't so focused on disability pride, but they didn't know anything about like disability culture or like how to talk about disability.

00:24:05.009 --> 00:24:12.753
And so they paid money, they paid a whole production team and everyone on set for at least a whole day and they did this story.

00:24:12.753 --> 00:24:20.559
The story was about a worker who worked at their stores who treated an autistic customer with kindness.

00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:25.633
She always knew their order and was like a good server to them.

00:24:25.633 --> 00:24:31.491
And the way and the narrative that Chick-fil-A framed this was like wow, isn't this inspiring?

00:24:31.491 --> 00:24:32.997
And here's the deal.

00:24:32.997 --> 00:24:37.453
Their companies could crank out something like that now if they really wanted to.

00:24:37.453 --> 00:24:50.223
But what they won't understand is that when you say that treating an autistic customer the same as you would any other customer is inspirational, that makes it, gives society a pass on ableism.

00:24:50.694 --> 00:24:53.924
So, unless you're doing deep work, I don't suggest doing anything.

00:24:53.924 --> 00:24:54.960
I suggest doing the work now.

00:24:54.960 --> 00:25:02.238
I suggest treating this as you're jumping off point of like oh man, I didn't know that next you're going to do something, or even, like you know, I'm talking about before.

00:25:02.238 --> 00:25:08.005
National disability employment awareness month is October and then international day of disabled people is in December.

00:25:08.005 --> 00:25:10.964
So if you want to start like working towards those things, that's an option.

00:25:10.964 --> 00:25:16.144
But don't do anything as in terms of like a PR push right now If you're already.

00:25:16.144 --> 00:25:18.361
So my thing would be to learn, like we have.

00:25:18.361 --> 00:25:19.346
We offer workshops.

00:25:19.346 --> 00:25:20.494
We're doing five workshops.

00:25:20.494 --> 00:25:25.702
We offer all kinds of options with a misfit, but there's also other people that are doing lots of great work as well.

00:25:25.702 --> 00:25:31.335
I love our team, but I mostly care that you learn about this.

00:25:31.335 --> 00:25:32.615
That's mostly what I care about.

00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:34.234
Yeah, and it could be as simple though.

00:25:34.234 --> 00:25:35.654
I mean, we can still tweet about it.

00:25:35.654 --> 00:25:36.734
We still have hash tweets.

00:25:36.734 --> 00:25:38.315
We could do a post and we mentioned it.

00:25:38.315 --> 00:25:41.104
We still have plenty of time to do that.

00:25:41.556 --> 00:25:53.934
You know, as you mentioned the story of Chick-fil-A, and even when you're referring back to Nike and the Paralympians, you know people, I know a lot of people strive to do good.

00:25:54.336 --> 00:26:06.950
They strive to do the right thing and brands do, and it's, and the rules of the road with disability, with marginalized groups, is brought sometimes with.

00:26:06.950 --> 00:26:16.125
It makes it difficult, Because if you do do it wrong, even if you try, there are people out there who will attack you for it, who will bring you down for it.

00:26:16.125 --> 00:26:37.615
But also with some groups, for instance, when it comes to race, we, you know for years, people you know either told or you know it was indoctrinated in them, like you don't see color, You're not supposed to see color, and now we know, no, we need to see color, we need to see all of why someone is in a marginalized position.

00:26:37.615 --> 00:26:39.994
You're coming at it in another way.

00:26:39.994 --> 00:26:45.691
It's like, yes, we want to see it because we want to be awareness of it, but when it comes to branding and marketing.

00:26:45.691 --> 00:26:52.134
It's important to treat people with disabilities just like everyone else Totally yeah yeah, yeah, because of the narrative that's been around us so much.

00:26:52.153 --> 00:26:57.871
Right, it's either that like, oh, wow, that person's an inspiration for just existing and wiping their butt in the morning.

00:26:57.871 --> 00:26:58.454
You know what I mean.

00:26:58.454 --> 00:26:58.963
Like wow, oh my gosh.

00:26:58.963 --> 00:27:02.952
Or the other side is often the other stereotype that we see.

00:27:02.952 --> 00:27:04.450
A lot is like, I'd be careful, I'd say this.

00:27:04.450 --> 00:27:07.463
Oftentimes people will.

00:27:07.463 --> 00:27:07.786
If they're.

00:27:07.786 --> 00:27:15.202
When they're trying to include people with disabilities, they will show how challenging it is to be a person with a disability without showing the other side.

00:27:15.202 --> 00:27:18.585
And so then it.

00:27:18.585 --> 00:27:29.163
I'm not going to lie to you being disabled is hard sometimes, right, like my endometriosis at disability has made my life extremely challenging, however it is.

00:27:29.163 --> 00:27:30.327
It's not just about being disabled.

00:27:30.327 --> 00:27:39.214
However it is, I don't only have a one dimensional life, so when you just show these little snippets, it reinforces stigmas.

00:27:39.214 --> 00:27:45.784
So one of the best ways you can show disabled people is like showing them just participating in their everyday life.

00:27:46.375 --> 00:27:48.375
Yes, I totally understand that.

00:27:48.375 --> 00:28:07.904
And going, you know, when you mentioned how difficult it is for you, I think anyone who's ever traveled with me, you know, this weekend, a girls weekend on Martha's Vineyard, you know, oh, I forgot to buy the gluten free bread, oh, I forgot to, you know, and the fact that they're even thinking about it is wonderful, but then you become a nuisance.

00:28:07.904 --> 00:28:20.432
Or anyone who has traveled with me or gone to a ball game with me or someplace where they where you know, I can't get access to food and I get very angry Totally.

00:28:20.432 --> 00:28:21.214
It's so funny it is.

00:28:21.214 --> 00:28:27.295
So it's all about just general, I just awareness of it, because it does impact more people than we realize.

00:28:27.295 --> 00:28:38.201
Okay, so I just wanted briefly, before we wrap up here are there any celebrities that seem to do it well, that are bringing disabilities into a new light?

00:28:38.201 --> 00:28:43.647
When, now that they have the influence behind them that you think are really making strides here?

00:28:44.131 --> 00:28:44.994
Huh, Interesting.

00:28:44.994 --> 00:28:50.295
So I mean Niall, I think his lesson is hormone.

00:28:50.295 --> 00:28:51.171
I need to like check that out.

00:28:51.171 --> 00:28:53.974
He's a deaf actor and he's incredible.

00:28:53.974 --> 00:28:56.473
He's he like one America's next top model.

00:28:56.473 --> 00:29:10.147
He's hot as hell, he's really hot and he is deaf and he's super cool and he's doing a series on his social media talking about, like, deaf erasure and all of the systemic issues that deaf people have faced over the years.

00:29:10.147 --> 00:29:11.213
Let people get a better taste of it.

00:29:11.213 --> 00:29:16.472
So I think that's an example of somebody who's great and has done really cool things.

00:29:16.472 --> 00:29:22.815
I also want to share a story of somebody who messed up and fixed it perfect.

00:29:23.865 --> 00:29:24.855
Okay, tell me, and that is Lizzo.

00:29:26.221 --> 00:29:35.571
So in the United States the word spaz isn't like, it's not amazing, but it's not super derogatory, but it is extremely offensive to the disabled community in the UK.

00:29:35.571 --> 00:29:45.858
She was called out and immediately apologized, acknowledged it, changed her song.

00:29:45.858 --> 00:29:50.146
I just re-recorded it and released it Like no notes, no excuse.

00:29:50.146 --> 00:29:52.528
She wasn't like oh, but I didn't know.

00:29:52.528 --> 00:29:53.784
Sorry, enjoy it.

00:29:53.784 --> 00:29:57.965
Right, it was so quick, I did a podcast on that.

00:29:58.039 --> 00:29:59.586
I'll include a link in the show.

00:29:59.586 --> 00:30:10.928
I also did a post on it and I was amazed well, shocked, not surprised by how many people were saying to me what's wrong with Spass, what's wrong with it?

00:30:10.928 --> 00:30:11.489
What's wrong with it?

00:30:11.489 --> 00:30:13.125
How many people didn't know?

00:30:13.125 --> 00:30:14.363
Yeah, totally.

00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:31.943
Yeah, absolutely, and so one thing that I talk about a lot is like it's important for every single person, at every single stage of marketing and communications within your business, to have some education on this, because, yes, lizzo recorded the song and it is, at the end of the day, her responsibility because she is her own brand.

00:30:31.943 --> 00:30:38.846
But how many producers and sound artists and marketers were involved with the release of that song?

00:30:38.846 --> 00:30:45.825
Right, like it could have, somebody should have been able to step, and Lizzo is a very like.

00:30:45.825 --> 00:30:46.949
Look at how she responded.

00:30:46.949 --> 00:30:50.046
She would have responded quickly if they had flagged that for her right.

00:30:50.066 --> 00:30:50.921
Yeah absolutely so.

00:30:50.921 --> 00:30:56.742
The amount of people that that song, the amount of hands that that song went through before it got to Lizzo and before it got to the public was a lot.

00:30:56.742 --> 00:31:06.247
So that's part of why I say every single person in this industry needs some understanding of this, because with social media you're gonna get called out.

00:31:06.969 --> 00:31:07.912
You are gonna get called out.

00:31:07.912 --> 00:31:17.569
And on the other side of that coin, I think there are a lot of celebrities out there who are bringing a lot of awareness in a lot of unique ways that now it's commonplace.

00:31:17.569 --> 00:31:20.849
I mean Selena Gomez suffering from lupus.

00:31:20.849 --> 00:31:24.048
That is a constant part of her narrative.

00:31:24.048 --> 00:31:27.347
There's Michael J Fox with Parkinson's disease.

00:31:27.347 --> 00:31:27.990
Salma Hayek.

00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:30.565
No, no, no, that's Salma Hayek.

00:31:30.565 --> 00:31:31.481
Oh my gosh, what is?

00:31:31.481 --> 00:31:33.508
I'm so sorry, I just forgot their name.

00:31:33.508 --> 00:31:34.210
I'm blinking on their name.

00:31:34.210 --> 00:31:36.788
They were just in Dancing with the Stars, not Salma Hayek.

00:31:36.788 --> 00:31:39.083
For what?

00:31:39.083 --> 00:31:39.684
What did they have?

00:31:39.684 --> 00:31:42.988
I believe it's MS.

00:31:44.284 --> 00:31:44.545
MS.

00:31:44.545 --> 00:31:52.090
Okay, oh well, there's also Gigi Adid, who has Hashimoto's disease.

00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:54.547
Yep, Salma Blair, Salma Blair oh.

00:31:54.567 --> 00:31:55.288
Salma Blair?

00:31:55.288 --> 00:31:57.105
Oh, of course Salma Blair, yes.

00:31:57.105 --> 00:31:59.647
And gosh, who is the other?

00:31:59.647 --> 00:32:00.844
She was on, married with Children.

00:32:00.844 --> 00:32:01.787
Why am I blinking her name?

00:32:01.787 --> 00:32:02.167
Dead to me.

00:32:02.167 --> 00:32:03.623
What the blonde.

00:32:03.623 --> 00:32:05.711
Oh my, oh, gosh.

00:32:05.790 --> 00:32:06.814
I'm not gonna blink it out, I don't know.

00:32:06.814 --> 00:32:07.375
I haven't seen it yet.

00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.385
Someone listening to this right now is yelling her name at me yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

00:32:11.385 --> 00:32:13.426
Oh my gosh, I'm blinking on her.

00:32:13.426 --> 00:32:21.726
And then I mentioned Nick Jonas as well, but there's a lot of celebrities out there who I think are really doing a good job bringing to light a lot of these disabilities.

00:32:21.726 --> 00:32:28.188
All right, Kelsey, before we go, just tell me some of the things, some of the ways that people can work with you right now.

00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:28.642
Yeah.

00:32:28.642 --> 00:32:34.090
So it's Disability Pride Month and we have these awesome series of workshops.

00:32:34.090 --> 00:32:34.863
There's five of them.

00:32:34.863 --> 00:32:40.705
First one is what is Ableism A Crash Course and what it Is and what Disability is, how it Shows Up in and Around Us.

00:32:40.705 --> 00:32:45.186
The second one is Untap Potential, the ROI of Disability Inclusive Content.

00:32:45.186 --> 00:32:49.826
We know that companies that do prioritize disability see 30% higher profit margins.

00:32:49.826 --> 00:33:00.845
So we go through like the basics of that and then we also look at four different commercials in that workshop, one of which is that Chick-fil-A1, and then we compare and contrast good ones versus bad ones and what narrative really does.

00:33:00.845 --> 00:33:07.548
The third one is Say what your Guide to Disability Inclusive Language, which gives you a crash course and how to talk about it.

00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:13.280
Because within every community language's nuance, disability is the largest marginalized community in the world.

00:33:13.280 --> 00:33:14.906
So of course, there's varying takes.

00:33:14.906 --> 00:33:22.884
It is not comprehend like I could not put this in an Instagram post if I tried, because, like you're saying, you post something, someone will get upset.

00:33:22.884 --> 00:33:26.387
Some people prefer different like somebody.

00:33:26.387 --> 00:33:29.726

251: A Realistic Picture of Disability Rights and Inclusion in Media and Marketing with Kelsey Lindell

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